Just curious what everyone else thinks about this but presently, View Only borders act as Non-Attack borders.  Meaning they act the same as a border would just you can't attack or fortify to that territory.  That means that any Fog setting that is applicable to any border is still applicable to the view only borders.  So with Heavy Fog you will see exactly the same thing as with a regular border and with Total fog they won't do anything at all.

I think that a View Only border should allow you to be able to see the number of units and who owns it, ie: remove the fog completely.  That is kinda what the name implies.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

P.S.  I don't want to have to choose fog settings for the borders....that's just too much stuff.

This has been suggested before with different variations: http://www.wargear.net/forum/showthread/293

However, I don't want view-only borders to always show owner and unit count. It really depends on the map.

Another related issue is that fortify-only borders DO NOT lift the fog of war, as can be seen in my Ancient Isles of Kjeldor map.

Fortify only borders shouldn't lift the fog as they should only be applicable if you own both territories and if you don't it should be as if they do not exist.

I don't understand the purpose of View only borders as an advantage if they don't cut through the fog. If they just give a regular border view than in games with Total Fog, they are pointless and that should be the games where they have the most advantage.

Currently, if an author designs a map around the heaviest fog setting, then they will not have included any view-only borders as those borders will show nothing (unless they enjoy adding superfluous borders just for the giggles).

View only borders might as well reveal something.

Possible solution: View only borders are eligible for a modifier that sets the level of fog at the viewed end(s) of the border, much like an attack border is eligible for a modifier altering its dice.

or... just make view only borders always show no fog. that would be simplest, and if that's the rule, then we'd all learn to work within it.

I don't understand the purpose of View only borders as an advantage if they don't cut through the fog. If they just give a regular border view than in games with Total Fog, they are pointless and that should be the games where they have the most advantage.

Disagree. I think Reich's solution is too complicated and runs afoul of your distaste for setting fog modifiers on borders, which I agree with completely.

The purpose/advantage of view-only borders is the ability for the map author to enable a player to see a territory that they cannot attack. It doesn't have to do with fog. To use an example from your favorite style of board, Risky, imagine a board where you can attack from Spain to France but you can see from Spain to France, Germany and Italy. That's the purpose of the view-only border.

Yes, but with Total Fog you can't do that at all. The view only border would show you nothing. The border is completely useless in games with Total Fog and those are the games it would be the most best in.
If you were playing Salem's Dusk and instead of the church letting you attack the houses, it let you see everything on the map wouldn't you want that more than a units bonus? Wouldn't that territory be worth much more than the +3 units the church is worth? As it is now you could add in all the View Only borders you want and it wouldn't change anything.

View-only borders are not meant for use with Total Fog. They're meant for use with light or medium fog. See either my Total WarGear or Ancient Isles maps for examples of how this feature can be employed.

RiskyBack wrote: Fortify only borders shouldn't lift the fog as they should only be applicable if you own both territories and if you don't it should be as if they do not exist.

The problem is if you want a non-attacking 'spy' territory that is supposed to give some vision, but from which you also want to be able to transfer troops if you own the viewable territory. Since you can only have one border in place at a time, currently it is only possible to have view only OR fortify only, you can't have both at the same time.

Kjeld wrote:

... currently it is only possible to have view only OR fortify only, you can't have both at the same time.

It would be really nice to be able to "stack" multiple borders. Mainly for View/Transfer, Transfer/Artillery.

If Stacking borders ever comes int existence it would be cool if you could have separate modifiers on each border. and you could have the option of having it like this:

France has artillery(+3 attack) and a normal border(-2 attack) going to Spain.  France has 15 troops so dose Spain. France choose to use 8 troops for a artillery strike. meaning France can only use 6 (1 left behind) for the normal border assault.

you could set it to be able to "reuse" your troops as well. France uses all for the artillery and when Spain is at 1 then switch to all for the ground assault.

What do you all think about Artillery Borders NOT showing through the fog?  It seems to me that they are meant as long range attacks and so maybe they shouldn't get the same ability with fog that a standard border or a View border should have.

If I had to remember that this particular View Only border on this particular map trumped the heavy fog setting I think I'd have to strangle the map-maker.

I would have to come down on the side of fog wins out over borders, whether they are View Only or Artillery or Normal. I can just imagine the headaches caused by trying to selectively raise fog on some borders.. think of the issues involved with the history log.

If you mean view only borders lets you see a territory with a light or medium fog setting than I think that is good. You may want to design a territory where it can see far into fog, but can't attack or reinforce.

Anything ever change with this?

Cramchakle wrote: or... just make view only borders always show no fog. that would be simplest, and if that's the rule, then we'd all learn to work within it.

I think this makes the most sense doesn't it?

A bit curious about this, as it makes/breaks an area of a map I have almost ready to go. Thanks!

Yertle wrote:

Cramchakle wrote: or... just make view only borders always show no fog. that would be simplest, and if that's the rule, then we'd all learn to work within it.

I think this makes the most sense doesn't it?

I think this is best also.  To disallow spies, watchtowers, etc in anything but light fog games seems too restrictive.   While I do sympathize with 11s concern about having to always check, I disagree with the choice of default.  View-only should err on the side of too much information, not too little because of the functionality we associate to view-only (spies, etc).  -H

I'll update the engine code early next week to make this change.

I'm all for this! I'm just wondering how the View only borders would work with the new Fog Layer. If a territory is vacant would the view only border show the Fog layer or the fill layer?