I suppose it could be done, but around 90% of the site's players are from the US so it's not really going to help a great deal in terms of catching cheaters.

tom wrote:

I suppose it could be done, but around 90% of the site's players are from the US so it's not really going to help a great deal in terms of catching cheaters.

Sure, but among the cheaters I know :

Wertu (Norway) is Arnaldo (UK)

Jarpan (South Africa) is Genkiwi (New-Zealand) and Aluminia (Australia)

Jama (UK) is Kreml666 (Russia)

LionHeart (UK) is Kinski (UK)

Kinetix (US) is BloodLust (UK) and DatoRangers (UK)

Sager1410 (Egypt) is Dido1410 (Egypt)

Nirvana1808 (Croatia) is Ana0707 (Croatia)

Knowing the real country would at least help me to detect who I have to be suspicious of.

I'd like to propose a solution to the cheating problem. At the moment IP addresses are recorded for every single player action but these are not visible to players for privacy reasons. The proposal is that a number is given to each unique IP address used within a particular game and this is made visible to players in the game log. So this would keep player's IP information private but it would show whether two players were using the same IP address (as they would have matching numbers). This information would only be valid on a per-game basis (i.e. you would not be able to compare the IP numbers across games.

Downsides I can see are: 

1. Increased potential for false accusations (i.e. players who have a genuine reason for playing off the same IP). However I think there are very few of these types of player around vs the number of cheaters.

2. This may drive cheaters underground - they will need to change IP addresses to be able to cheat effectively, this will in turn make them harder to catch (right now it's pretty easy).

The major upside is that most basic cheating (which I would guess is most of it) will be easily caught this way.

Mad Bomber wrote:

Kinski is a cheater?....i knew it! how is this guy still around...i've lost several games to him/lionheart

I don't necessarily think they are the same person. They are on the same IP but the behavior, win ratios vs each other and timings of turns doesn't fit with a multi.

Question - because I don't know the technical side of all this:

If I have two computers at home and I take turns on both, would they both show up with the same IP address? Likewise, if I'm in an office building that has 100 computers, do they all share the same IP address? I think I understand that within a network, all computers have a different IP address, but when that network communicates to the internet, would they all show as the same IP address?

CK66 wrote:

Question - because I don't know the technical side of all this:

If I have two computers at home and I take turns on both, would they both show up with the same IP address? Likewise, if I'm in an office building that has 100 computers, do they all share the same IP address? I think I understand that within a network, all computers have a different IP address, but when that network communicates to the internet, would they all show as the same IP address?

At the house it should be showing up as the same IP address.  For an office all of the computers, depending on how the network is setup, will show as the same IP address.  I have this going on with a buddy of mine that plays this.  We work together and it will always show up as the same IP address because of how I setup our network.

Beastlymaster wrote:

At the house it should be showing up as the same IP address.  For an office all of the computers, depending on how the network is setup, will show as the same IP address.  I have this going on with a buddy of mine that plays this.  We work together and it will always show up as the same IP address because of how I setup our network.

Thanks!

Two (or more) people who work together and take their turns at work will show up with the same IP address. Also, if you have a friend visit you and he/she takes turns at your house, both will show with the same IP address. Maybe these situations are rare, but I'm concerned about false accusations.

CK66 wrote:

... I'm concerned about false accusations.

I love it.

So you feel concerned about false accusations ? What do Cona Chris think about it ?

I think you need to calm down on the accusation Toto. If you have a concern then PM me directly and I'll look into it. In the case of these two players whilst they play each other a lot (and are probably friends in real life)  they operate off different IPs and have a nearly even win record. They are clearly two separate people and are not cheaters.

The classic characteristics of a multiple account cheater are two players playing each regularly where one player almost always wins. If you're not seeing that then you're probably not seeing cheating.

tom wrote:

I'd like to propose a solution to the cheating problem. At the moment IP addresses are recorded for every single player action but these are not visible to players for privacy reasons. The proposal is that a number is given to each unique IP address used within a particular game and this is made visible to players in the game log. So this would keep player's IP information private but it would show whether two players were using the same IP address (as they would have matching numbers). This information would only be valid on a per-game basis (i.e. you would not be able to compare the IP numbers across games.

Downsides I can see are: 

1. Increased potential for false accusations (i.e. players who have a genuine reason for playing off the same IP). However I think there are very few of these types of player around vs the number of cheaters.

2. This may drive cheaters underground - they will need to change IP addresses to be able to cheat effectively, this will in turn make them harder to catch (right now it's pretty easy).

The major upside is that most basic cheating (which I would guess is most of it) will be easily caught this way.

 

I totally agree on point #2. 

Just so I understand, with what you propose above would the in-game players still basically be responsible for catching the cheaters since they'll have to review the game history (and player numbers) to make sure they are different for all players?  Is there a way to automate the process so that at some point in the game there is a "Cheat Check" which verifies that all players in the game indeed have a distinct IP address?

With an automated process maybe it would just flag those two players for the review panel, who could then decide whether the multiple accounts were indeed the same person based on playing behavior.

I think this process would be subtle enough to keep the cheaters from going underground.

~ATH

AttilaTheHun wrote:  Is there a way to automate the process so that at some point in the game there is a "Cheat Check" which verifies that all players in the game indeed have a distinct IP address?

Player's should still be allowed to play in games together even if they have the same IP address, even if they know each other it could be fine.

I would think that most if not all cheaters can be identified by their play, not their IP addresses.  I've said this before, but I believe cheating is pretty easy to detect because unusual patterns emerge, and once players start to post good numbers they put themselves in the spotlight where their play is observed even more closely.  WG has an active community of players in the top 200, and I'd say at least 10% of them are regular posters on these forums. (some more paranoid than others - and that's OK). 

BYW, I play against co-workers (same IP address) all the time and though I can't speak for their agendas, I'm out to kick their assess. 

Yet the premise of the solution is that the cheater-finding is more proactive vs. the current system.  Hence the reason for the automation.

CK66 wrote:

Beastlymaster wrote:

At the house it should be showing up as the same IP address.  For an office all of the computers, depending on how the network is setup, will show as the same IP address.  I have this going on with a buddy of mine that plays this.  We work together and it will always show up as the same IP address because of how I setup our network.

Thanks!

Two (or more) people who work together and take their turns at work will show up with the same IP address. Also, if you have a friend visit you and he/she takes turns at your house, both will show with the same IP address. Maybe these situations are rare, but I'm concerned about false accusations.

not rare...i know of at least half a dozen here that play, and i think someone in the IT dept plays cus this site is still running where all the others (WF included) are blocked...i'm just hoping we don't piss that guy off - cus i'd be heartbroken if i couldn't visit for a few minutes here and there for a mental break!!

weathertop wrote:

not rare...i know of at least half a dozen here that play, and i think someone in the IT dept plays cus this site is still running where all the others (WF included) are blocked...i'm just hoping we don't piss that guy off - cus i'd be heartbroken if i couldn't visit for a few minutes here and there for a mental break!!

Come work for us, where I am the IT guy.

Beastlymaster wrote:

Come work for us, where I am the IT guy.

what do you do? and where are you at?!

AttilaTheHun wrote:

Yet the premise of the solution is that the cheater-finding is more proactive vs. the current system.  Hence the reason for the automation.

I have no problems with using automation to flag suspect behaviour,  but ultimately the play and/or posts of the suspect players need to be evaluated by a human.

AttilaTheHun wrote:

tom wrote:

I'd like to propose a solution to the cheating problem. At the moment IP addresses are recorded for every single player action but these are not visible to players for privacy reasons. The proposal is that a number is given to each unique IP address used within a particular game and this is made visible to players in the game log. So this would keep player's IP information private but it would show whether two players were using the same IP address (as they would have matching numbers). This information would only be valid on a per-game basis (i.e. you would not be able to compare the IP numbers across games.

Downsides I can see are: 

1. Increased potential for false accusations (i.e. players who have a genuine reason for playing off the same IP). However I think there are very few of these types of player around vs the number of cheaters.

2. This may drive cheaters underground - they will need to change IP addresses to be able to cheat effectively, this will in turn make them harder to catch (right now it's pretty easy).

The major upside is that most basic cheating (which I would guess is most of it) will be easily caught this way.

 

I totally agree on point #2. 

Just so I understand, with what you propose above would the in-game players still basically be responsible for catching the cheaters since they'll have to review the game history (and player numbers) to make sure they are different for all players?  Is there a way to automate the process so that at some point in the game there is a "Cheat Check" which verifies that all players in the game indeed have a distinct IP address?

With an automated process maybe it would just flag those two players for the review panel, who could then decide whether the multiple accounts were indeed the same person based on playing behavior.

I think this process would be subtle enough to keep the cheaters from going underground.

~ATH

tom wrote:

I'd like to propose a solution to the cheating problem. At the moment IP addresses are recorded for every single player action but these are not visible to players for privacy reasons. The proposal is that a number is given to each unique IP address used within a particular game and this is made visible to players in the game log. So this would keep player's IP information private but it would show whether two players were using the same IP address (as they would have matching numbers). This information would only be valid on a per-game basis (i.e. you would not be able to compare the IP numbers across games.

Downsides I can see are: 

1. Increased potential for false accusations (i.e. players who have a genuine reason for playing off the same IP). However I think there are very few of these types of player around vs the number of cheaters.

2. This may drive cheaters underground - they will need to change IP addresses to be able to cheat effectively, this will in turn make them harder to catch (right now it's pretty easy).

The major upside is that most basic cheating (which I would guess is most of it) will be easily caught this way.

 

I like this idea...now, there's a chance that multiple players are using the same IP address (college buddies or relatives or just friends that live near eachother)...once other players notice the same IP address, they can raise the question to the other players if gameplay looks suspicious.  Furthermore, if same IP is due to one of the reasons above and the players are indeed different players, the fact that they are in the same game together would probably lead to collusion between them anyway and that should not happen.

Thingol wrote:

Furthermore, if same IP is due to one of the reasons above and the players are indeed different players, the fact that they are in the same game together would probably lead to collusion between them anyway and that should not happen.

Is this guilty until proven innocent? 

I am nervous that this system will lead to a number of "false positives" and any people that play from the same IP address will always be under a cloud of suspicion -

My three kids were members of WG for awhile.  I wouldn't like having to explain why we had the same IP address in every game we were in together.  I also play at work where at least three other people play.  So, again, it would be annoying to have to deflect suspicion any time we were in a game together.