I can't get over what a brilliant idea this is.  It's one of those things that in hindsight is so blindingly obvious that you wonder why nobody ever suggested it.

To restate:  allow a secondary 'skin' map image as an overlay to the base map.

This idea has so many upsides:

- You can do island systems as part of a single country without connecting lines between them.  The connecting lines are in your base map so that flash can autofill, your overlay map covers them.

- You get to combine the best artistic elements of circle mode and fill mode.  Circle mode allows for more complex map designs but is limited to, well, circles as the country indicators.  Fill mode allows for more natural country indicators at the expense of map detail (mostly flat maps with details limited to non-country areas.  An overlay with the ability to set an alpha transparency gives you both.

- Duplicate popular maps like global war without flooding the Board page with 20 different versions.  Same map, same rankings, same gameplay, X number of different 'skins' to select from.  Using Europe 1560 as an example, you could have the same base map and provide 3 map overlays that would mimic exactly the 3 different versions we've had available.  There's no reason you couldn't change the skin even during a game, and no reason why everyone needs to play with the same skin in the same game.

I can't think of any downsides.  Even the development process would probably be easier, if you change your overlay slightly and it still works you wouldn't even need to redo the autofill on a country.  I don't do maps but I bet a large percentage of people that do already have separate layers for base and overlay in their graphics program.

Toaster gets a gold star!

i have, in fact, seen it suggested before in this forum or its predecessor, and i agree, its spectacular

IRoll11s wrote:

-   There's no reason you couldn't change the skin even during a game, and no reason why everyone needs to play with the same skin in the same game.

Hmmm not sure about this one.  Skin can sometimes play quite a roll, and there would have to be some way of ensuring a territory isn't completely covered over.  But overall I guess if it was per user and each skin was somehow tested, then it could work.

I use layers, however the layer above/below is somewhat dependent upon the layer below/above.  For example, I place borders where the territories end, a different skin may have the borders located differently which would break the underlying territories.

Overall it would be cool with the blend, but I think it would be another level to map designing, Circle Mode >> Fill Mode >> Toaster Layer Mode.

I'm fairly certain it was Toaster that suggested this on WF as well.

it can't just be a purely aesthetic overlay after everything else is finished?

i'm thinking of the Lord of the Gears map when i mention this as it would be an awesome map with some sort of overlay as it wouldn't seem so 'doctored' with the neat mountains, etc just kinda popped into the rest of the 'flat' map...

I kid you not, the idea came to me in the shower. All the best ones do, don't they?

From talking to Tom a while back it should be relatively easy to implement because the Flash Player already breaks the image up into the fill layer and then sandwiches the image with several other layers to make the final product.

Basically (so I understand), all that would need to be changed is to be able to upload a separate file for the system to create the fill areas from and then make use the second image file to lay on top of it.

It is a great idea and it's in the works at the moment. It's really the missing link between the more player friendly fill mode style and the more attractive (in that you can get more map detail) Circle mode style.

It will be slightly different to how you envisage it though IRoll11s - the top layer will be the the Board image, then the filled territories sit behind the board image (i.e. visible through the transparent areas).

Yertle wrote:

Overall it would be cool with the blend, but I think it would be another level to map designing, Circle Mode >> Fill Mode >> Toaster Layer Mode.

Nah. A designer wouldn't <i>have</i> to use it, it would just be an option for those who are skilled enough to utilize it. Like headers and all that in the Old World. If you don't understand it, just leave it alone.

This would be amazing. For those of you who have played Lux Delux, I envision a very similar graphical style.

And yes, weathertop, if Tom can make this happen I will completely revise the Lord of the Gears map to take full advantage!

asm wrote:

Yertle wrote:

Overall it would be cool with the blend, but I think it would be another level to map designing, Circle Mode >> Fill Mode >> Toaster Layer Mode.

Nah. A designer wouldn't have to use it, it would just be an option for those who are skilled enough to utilize it. Like headers and all that in the Old World. If you don't understand it, just leave it alone.

I meant level of difficulty in map designing.  Circle mode is obviously easiest, Fill Mode harder, and Layer Mode probably a bit more difficult.

Actually, layer mode will probably be quite a bit less time-consuming. With layer mode, it's pretty easy to make the solid-color territory areas for the fill layer, and then you're free to do whatever you want with the detail layer, without having to worry about somehow screwing up your nice solid-color fills. I think that not only will this new mode improve graphics quality, but will also save a boatload of time to boot.

Kjeld wrote: Actually, layer mode will probably be quite a bit less time-consuming. With layer mode, it's pretty easy to make the solid-color territory areas for the fill layer, and then you're free to do whatever you want with the detail layer, without having to worry about somehow screwing up your nice solid-color fills. I think that not only will this new mode improve graphics quality, but will also save a boatload of time to boot.

Hmmmmm, adjusting for transparency could be tricky.  Obviously you wouldn't want all of your detail layer to be transparent, but you would want the edges of borders transparent and/or if you did want something on the whole territory, that color would have to be one that wouldn't compromise the player color.

Perhaps it wouldn't be all that much different though, as multi-layers is already the best way to make maps that I know of.

Yertle wrote: Perhaps it wouldn't be all that much different though, as multi-layers is already the best way to make maps that I know of.

Exactly.Your fill layer (a mask, really), would just be the extraction of all your solid-color territory areas in an old-style fill map into a new image. The new image will overlay the detail layer, with partial transparency so that the underlying detail will "show through" the filled territories, lending them texture. You shouldn't have to worry about borders and such because those areas will be fully transparent in the fill layer because you didn't draw anything there.

Again, this method frees the designer up to do whatever he/she wants with the detail layer, the "skin", so to speak. Though I'd rather it was less a skin and more an underlying dermis. I would prefer the skin to lie underneath the fill layer with full opacity, and the fill layer to draw on top of it with partial transparency.

Yertle wrote:

Hmmmmm, adjusting for transparency could be tricky.  Obviously you wouldn't want all of your detail layer to be transparent, but you would want the edges of borders transparent and/or if you did want something on the whole territory, that color would have to be one that wouldn't compromise the player color.

Perhaps it wouldn't be all that much different though, as multi-layers is already the best way to make maps that I know of.

In Paint.Net this is easy to handle, though maybe not trivial to figure out.

So I'm assuming you have a background layer which is your detailed drawing. Then, you have another layer which is currently your fill layer, i.e. the filled outlines of your territories.

• First, make a copy of the background layer and then make it invisible. You don't have to do this, but keeping an un-edited copy of your primary graphics is a good practice.
• Then, select all the territories on the fill layer.
• Next, move your focus back to the background layer -- you will still have the areas you selected on the fill layer selected, but on the background.
• Now, go up to the Adjustments menu, and at the bottom is an option for Transparency. Use the slider to make your selections as transparent as necessary to make the territory owner obvious but preserve some of the detail of your background.
  • You can help predict what your game board will look like in play if you fill the territories on your fill layer with a variety of colors from your player color palette and then move your fill layer to below your background layer before you start adjusting the transparency of the cut-outs.
• Make the fill layer invisible.
• Save.
• Save as optimized png.
• Flatten.
• Done.

Well, not quite. You need to save two separate optimized png files, one for the detail layer and one for the fill layer. I think that the transparency level of the fill layer would also be better set in the game designer tool, as the fill layer image itself will probably need to have all solid-color areas for Tom's code to work (is that right Tom? I picture rendering the colors in the fill areas according to your current code, and then applying transparency, and layering the detail layer underneath -- but I know nothing about how flash actually works, so that could be complete malarkey).

Cramchakle wrote:

Yertle wrote:

Hmmmmm, adjusting for transparency could be tricky.  Obviously you wouldn't want all of your detail layer to be transparent, but you would want the edges of borders transparent and/or if you did want something on the whole territory, that color would have to be one that wouldn't compromise the player color.

Perhaps it wouldn't be all that much different though, as multi-layers is already the best way to make maps that I know of.

In Paint.Net this is easy to handle, though maybe not trivial to figure out.

So I'm assuming you have a background layer which is your detailed drawing. Then, you have another layer which is currently your fill layer, i.e. the filled outlines of your territories.

• First, make a copy of the background layer and then make it invisible. You don't have to do this, but keeping an un-edited copy of your primary graphics is a good practice.
• Then, select all the territories on the fill layer.
• Next, move your focus back to the background layer -- you will still have the areas you selected on the fill layer selected, but on the background.
• Now, go up to the Adjustments menu, and at the bottom is an option for Transparency. Use the slider to make your selections as transparent as necessary to make the territory owner obvious but preserve some of the detail of your background.
  • You can help predict what your game board will look like in play if you fill the territories on your fill layer with a variety of colors from your player color palette and then move your fill layer to below your background layer before you start adjusting the transparency of the cut-outs.
• Make the fill layer invisible.
• Save.
• Save as optimized png.
• Flatten.
• Done.

 

 

Another way would be to copy your background layer, select all the territories on the fill layer, go back to one of the background layers and press delete. Then go to the other background layer and you can adjust the transparency of the whole image. You'll only see transparency where you made cutouts in the first background layer.

Re: Kjeld: yes, indeed. So turn off all the other layers and save the fill layer as a png. Upload the two separately. I was just explaining to Yert how to only make the parts of the map that you want to be transparent.

Ah, I see. I was confused because I would go about the process a little differently in GIMP, but I see you are explaining the process in Paint.Net. Carry on.

so multiple layers for detail could be a really good thing:

bottom fill layer
detail layer on top of that that has the texture
detail layer on top of that that has terrain pieces (mtns, forests)
detail layer on top of that that has borders
detail layer on top of that that has title, rules, etc...

weathertop wrote: so multiple layers for detail could be a really good thing:

bottom fill layer
detail layer on top of that that has the texture
detail layer on top of that that has terrain pieces (mtns, forests)
detail layer on top of that that has borders
detail layer on top of that that has title, rules, etc...

True, but that layering happens in whatever graphics editor the board designer is using. By the time you see the image on a WarGear gameboard, those layers have been compressed into the final image you see. Since those details do not change during gameplay (the mountains, trees, icons, and text all stay right where they are), there is no reason to preserve layers as separate images on the server.

The reason two layers are required for this type of overlay-fill gameboard is that the fill color has to change in accordance with what's happening in the game. Thus there has to be a layer that can be changed on the fly (the semi-transparent fill layer), without disturbing the underlying static detail layer.

tom wrote: The top layer will be the the Board image, then the filled territories sit behind the board image (i.e. visible through the transparent areas).

Tom, I don't quite get the logic behind doing it this way. Could you please explain?

From a board designer perspective, it would be more straightforward to upload two fully opaque images (the detail layer and the overlay layer).

The detail layer would contain all the 'character' for the map - text, borders, texture, background decoration, etc. The overlay layer would simply contain uniformly-filled areas (representing individual territories) separated by full transparency.

On the site, the flash player would draw the detail layer on the bottom, fill and draw the overlay layer on top, and then apply a semi-transparency to the overlay layer such that the texture will show through. It seems that this shouldn't be too difficult, as it's very similar to what happens already with your transparency slider on the board designer -- except that instead of applying the transparency to the main map, you would apply it to the territories (to carry on the analogy, the little circles in the board designer).

This seems far simpler from a board-designer perspective than the system you are proposing, which requires application of transparency to various areas of the actual .png file, which might confuse a lot more people. If anyone needs to see visual examples of what I'm talking about in order for it to make sense, please let me know -- I'd be happy to oblige.