Blech... No Undo :P

IRoll11s wrote:

I would rather lose a game due to gross tactical and strategic stupidity than to interface error, forgetting no return to attack from transfer or fat finger syndrome.

Exactly.  This is a game about strategy.  The GUI is strictly there to log your actions and pass them along to the other players.  Ideally, the GUI would be so flawless that it wouldn't impact gameplay in anyway.  Until then, an undo button (with the restrictions tom mentioned) should be added. 

btw, in fog matches, after taking over a territory with the '3' command, you can view the number of units in the nearby territories before selecting how many units you want to transfer (depending on the fog setting) so I'm not sure how this is different than attacking with the T command, having all units transferred then (before moving on to any other actions) deciding to undo the full transfer and leaving the minimum 3 units that were used to take the territory (or how ever many units you then chose to actually transfer). 

Or better yet, stop using the 'T' and start using 'A'.

EDIT: Actually the whole point of the undo button would be in case you did accidentally hit 'T' instead of 'A'.  Point being that an interface mis-click shouldn't impact gameplay.  Limiting that to accidentally attacking a territory obviously.

What he said ^

If you were playing in real life, there would be no mis-clicking. You would never accidentally abondon a territory. You would never accidentally transfer the wrong number of troops. The strategy of the game is not "who is better at using the interface"

on a side note, what if there was a warning when you are about to abandon a territory like "You are about to abaondon this territory. Continue?" That would fix at least one of the issues without needing an undo feature.

Morbo wrote:
on a side note, what if there was a warning when you are about to abandon a territory like "You are about to abaondon this territory. Continue?"

I guess if that was a Setting to turn On/Off I would be able to turn it Off and wouldn't care, but it also seems like it would be annoying even for those that would want it.

EnixNeo wrote:

EDIT: Actually the whole point of the undo button would be in case you did accidentally hit 'T' instead of 'A'.  Point being that an interface mis-click shouldn't impact gameplay.  Limiting that to accidentally attacking a territory obviously.

What if I accidentally hit 2 or 1 when attacking instead of 3, no one would accidentally only roll 1/2 dice in real life, shouldn't I be able to Undo that since it was a GUI issue?

This is going to present a problem when you use up your last fortify as this currently ends your turn automatically.

So this functionality would have to be disabled to allow an undo to occur.

tom wrote: This is going to present a problem when you use up your last fortify as this currently ends your turn automatically.

So this functionality would have to be disabled to allow an undo to occur.

Which is also the only time you get the Card obtained pop-up window (only when your turn ends automatically), but that's kind of a bug already IMO.

I'm sort of against the Undo button, even though I know I would have benefited from it in at least a few games. If you're not taking your time playing your turn, then it's your problem if you missed something you planned on doing.

Warning messages for some things would be ok, though they may just annoy me.

i'm thinking i'm leaning more and more against it. tho i too wish otherwise at times in the past...

I'm not sure everyone completely understand this (or I don't, whatever).

It happened to me quite some time that I was playing and started to fortify, just to find out I had these 50 ninja's waiting somewhere that I could still use. Even when I only fortified a single unit, it's no longer possible to go back and to my attack phase.

I don't see how it would harm the game at all, to make it possible to undo all forify moves and go back to the attack phase.

SaphuA wrote: I'm not sure everyone completely understand this (or I don't, whatever).

I think we understand, its just not as simple as put in an Undo button because Undo changes the outcomes of games, and anything that does that should be implemented quite cautiously IMO.

I am leaning more towards no undo, too many variables. Play clean and live with your mistakes.

We understand, One thing I've done multiple times is do one phase of my planned attacks, and do the fortify in that phase, without remembering I deployed for 1 or 2 other areas. I live with those mistakes, and it's been a while since I've done it.

Even though I've been speaking positively about an undo feature I'm not sure that its a good idea either.  But its certainly worth discussing.

I don't see a problem with undo of any move that has zero impact on the game..   The only thing that falls into that category in my mind is fortify.   I liken it to the "touch-move" rule that casual chess players employ.  Some play that once you touch a piece, you have to move that piece.  Others play that once you take your hand off a piece you have moved, the move is un-take-backable.   Using this variant of the touch-move rule, you can move a piece on the board and "visualize" what the board would look like if your piece was moved there, knowing that that you are not committed to the move, or even moving that particular piece for that matter -- as long as you don't take your hand off it before moving it back to its original position.

In the case of a game with 1 or 2 fortifies, an undo amounts to not much more than a mis-click feature, but in the case of a  5+ fortify game, it could become a way for some players to "visualize" a range of scenarios.  Probably not for most of us, but for some..

My vote:

Abstain (It doesn't really matter to me)

Yertle wrote:

EnixNeo wrote:

EDIT: Actually the whole point of the undo button would be in case you did accidentally hit 'T' instead of 'A'.  Point being that an interface mis-click shouldn't impact gameplay.  Limiting that to accidentally attacking a territory obviously.

What if I accidentally hit 2 or 1 when attacking instead of 3, no one would accidentally only roll 1/2 dice in real life, shouldn't I be able to Undo that since it was a GUI issue?

Undo won't (and can't) apply to anything that involves attacking (this has been mentioned over and over again).  The moment you attack, the engine calculates rolls--you can't take back a roll just because you don't like the numbers.

I have a feeling we are all discussing different things because this is a no brainer.  Undo wouldn't apply to anything that irreversably gives away information.  Placing reinforcements then realizing you will need to turn in a risk set (but before moving to the next phase), fortifying to visualize positions (but before changing to another phase), accidentally transferring 43 units after a successful attack instead of the intended 3 (but before initiating the next attack or moving to another phase) are all great examples of the undo feature.

Undo is there only to make the GUI more transparent (it shouldn't be making or accidentally deciding moves for you).  This doesn't have to do with being careful--we're human, we've all accidentally clicked a button (don't tell me no one here uses ctrl-z).

not on this site...:^)

haha then I'm way behind the curve
);

EnixNeo wrote:

Undo won't (and can't) apply to anything that involves attacking (this has been mentioned over and over again). 

I know it's been discussed, but you are using the example that it's the GUI that causes errors, well in the case of attacking with 2 or 1 instead of 3 that can be considered a GUI error (I've hit 2 instead of 3 before, or even 3 instead of T/A).

(By the way I've battled for Card turn-in after Unit Placement but prior to Attack before and pretty much got denied, I was used to being allowed to do this on WF and still have problems with it every now and then, but I'm learning :).)

This doesn't have to do with being careful--we're human, we've all accidentally clicked a button

Hence you win some you lose some due to no Undo, with Undo you win some you lose some, so no difference :).  I still think Undo is sticky.

Morbo wrote:

The information would be revealed to you no matter what button you use to attack and conquer the territory, so would it really matter?

I think that if there's an any% chance that an undo under certain circumstances could ever be used to gain a tactical advantage, that it shouldn't be allowed.

weeeeee