Hello all you much more experienced designers!

Firstly, I'd like to thank many of you for participating in my initial development games as it will make this thread make much more sense!

So, since my development games are nearly at an end for this board: http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/5120/Board%20Explorer, I wanted to start to figure out this whole Ocean AutoNeutral thing that I would like to achieve could be implemented.  I started to think about it... Now, please correct me if I'm wrong (because my conclusion is a LOT of work), but the factory that will be activated to neutralize the ocean spaces that were just taken by the player who just took them during his/her turn will achieve neutrality based on the territories held by the following player.  In other words, when the next player's turn starts he/she has to be holding a territory that will activate neutrality of all ocean spaces at the beginning of his/her turn to revert any ocean spaces back to neutral that might have been captured by the previous player... In a perfect world that would be a "revolving" territory that was set to AutoNeutral the whole ocean but unfortunately that would require "real time" such that every territory was set to capture that single factory which would consequently, in real time, revert the entire ocean, which is not possible with non-real-time factories since it's two step... So, since it's conceivable that a player might own any single territory (or city) on the map then I have to create 35ish continents for EVERY territory (and city) on the map that consequently neutralize every ocean space factory... Yes?  If you can think of an easier way then this, please tell me!  Or, if your Advanced Map Editor can implement what I am describing, Ozy, let me know if that might be a way?

The second thing that crossed my mind with AutoNeutal was creating quasi token territories for all my off-screen factories... Since Autocapture fires off before Autoneutral (currently) This one would be much less work in implementation (in theory), but I have no idea if it would actually work as intended as of yet.  Basically the idea is that the territory would first fire off the autocapture to grant visibility and then the same territory would fire off autoneutral to revert the same factory back to neutral with the visibility hopefully being left residually?  Sounds sketchy I know.  It'll probably just cause a visibility which is instantly taken away and the only way someone could utilize the visibility would then be via viewing the history, which would not be acceptable, obviously.  So, I'll probably just still be waiting for token territories, but let me know if you have any feedback on this concept given the current order of operations... Perhaps someone more clever then I can see a way to get it to work?

Alternatively If autoneutral fired off before auto capture (which it doesn't according to the autonetral forum thread), but maybe Tom could "flip" the order of operations, then I could do something like I had thought of for the ocean space whereby the next player would neutralize all the offscreen factories prior to capturing their view factories and then at least eliminations could work again and visibility would work properly (although spies would be removed via this - as well as the other - method), but again, this second way would be a LOT of work, even more then ocean neutrality as every territory would need to neutralize 300ish off-screen view factories as well...  This would also make board movements invisible between turns, which might not the best situation either, but maybe it would feel interesting in it's own way?

Thanks for all your thoughts and contributions on this,

Erick

berickf wrote:

Alternatively If autoneutral fired off before auto capture (which it doesn't according to the autonetral forum thread), but maybe Tom could "flip" the order of operations, 

Erick

I was thinking the same thing.  In fact, I can't think of a reason I'd want Auto Neutrals to fire last, but I but I'd like to think about it more and hear what others say.   Optimally, it would be nice to be able to order everything independently.. and though I still have some questions about exactly how these things work when there are conflicting factories, I'd say we should play with it first (if only to confirm that it works the way we think it works). Just make a quick map with a few territories.

tom wrote:

Factories which change the ownership of the target territory (AutoCapture and AutoNeutral) these execute in a loop in order of alphanumeric factory name.

I don't see where it says that this happens after factories that do not change ownership, though it implies that all AutoCapture and AutoNeutral fire either before or after Standard and Universal Factories.

Also, what happens when a standard factory kicks in and puts a few on, and that is followed by an auto neutral (non-reset)? Does the second factory add on to the total established by the first? I.e., is there a running count? or do the last factories trump all previous that are not of the same type?

M57 wrote:

berickf wrote:

Alternatively If autoneutral fired off before auto capture (which it doesn't according to the autonetral forum thread), but maybe Tom could "flip" the order of operations, 

Erick

I was thinking the same thing.  In fact, I can't think of a reason I'd want Auto Neutrals to fire last, but I but I'd like to think about it more and hear what others say.   Optimally, it would be nice to be able to order everything independently.. and though I still have some questions about exactly how these things work when there are conflicting factories, I'd say we should play with it first (if only to confirm that it works the way we think it works). Just make a quick map with a few territories.

tom wrote:

Factories which change the ownership of the target territory (AutoCapture and AutoNeutral) these execute in a loop in order of alphanumeric factory name.

I don't see where it says that this happens after factories that do not change ownership, though it implies that all AutoCapture and AutoNeutral fire either before or after Standard and Universal Factories.

Also, what happens when a standard factory kicks in and puts a few on, and that is followed by an auto neutral (non-reset)? Does the second factory add on to the total established by the first? I.e., is there a running count? or do the last factories trump all previous that are not of the same type?

Hey M57,

I was thinking the same.  That I couldn't think of an instance where I'd want AutoNeutral to fire off last as usually converting to neutral would be like setting the table to make other changes afterwards.  Like I pointed out earlier I suspect by doing the autocapture then autoneutral I'd just end up clearing off the previous which would just be be counterproductive...  As for AutoCapture and AutoNeutral firing before Standard and Universal, since I am utilizing AutoCapture and AutoNeutral only per my example I'm not quite sure, but yeah, by Tom's explanation it does sound like they fire later.  Perhaps the designers should hash it out out in a thread to agree upon a "best" order while they are in their infancy such that going forward the firing order provides the most usefulness?

With regard to my standard use of AutoNeutral to neutralize the ocean each turn, has anything popped into your mind that might save me from having to create ≈300 * ≈35 = approximately 10,500 continent/factory connections? With RealtimeFactories I could do it with ≈300 + ≈35 = approximately 335 connections, for instance.  If Autoneutral were a territory attribute instead of factory driven then it could be done via the territory setting for the ≈35 water spaces only.  Wouldn't that be simple!  I know, using factories allows a slighter wider application and maybe somebody would want to make a board where holding one territory neutralizes something else, but the most "typical" use/desire for autoneutral would be most easy as a territory attribute.  Anyway, right now I'm seeing approximately 10,500 connections to be done as it is setup... Can you (or anyone else) see any way to reduce this?

Thanks a lot!

Erick

berickf wrote:

 Perhaps the designers should hash it out out in a thread to agree upon a "best" order while they are in their infancy such that going forward the firing order provides the most usefulness?

+1  I doubt that anyone is going to submit a new map that uses these features for at least a few weeks, which gives us all a little time.  It might be just fine as is, but if it can be optimized with a simple fix by Tom, then by all means..

With regard to my standard use of AutoNeutral to neutralize the ocean each turn, has anything popped into your mind that might save me from having to create ≈300 * ≈35 = approximately 10,500 continent/factory connections?

Now that we have a number of new features, why don't you consider rethinking the underlining constraints?  For instance, now that we have Victory Conditions, you could set every non-water territory as a single continent that captures an off-board victory territory.  This now opens up  your ability to make a single off-board dedicated territory for each player.  Point each of these to Ocean territories set as AutoNeutralReset factories.  So you've got # of Players * # Ocean Territories.  Might something like this help?

Sounds like it you should just set each ocean territory to auto neutral itself and be okay with the 1 turn delay.

Of course if factories could be set to activate at end-of-turn and when-captured in addition to beginning-of-turn...

Yeah Korrun, if factories could be chosen to fire off begin-turn or end-turn then I think that an end-turn firing for each water space could neutralize itself if it was taken, that'd be cool and make things simple.

The problem with the one turn delay for begin-turn firing factories is that if someone held an ocean space to neutralize at the beginning of their next turn then someone could take all their land spaces and then they'd neutralize themselves at the beginning of their turn when it came about and it would cause an elimination problem. Also, a weaker player could get a "free" card by taking that water space from them.  I'm trying to keep the water spaces out of the equation when it comes to cards and eliminations.

I'm still wrapping my brain around your suggestion M57.  But yeah, if I could somehow have every player holding an off-screen territory that would trigger the ocean to neutralize then that could simplify things for sure but I could also see that creating new problems with regard to eliminations?

berickf wrote:

I'm still wrapping my brain around your suggestion M57.  But yeah, if I could somehow have every player holding an off-screen territory that would trigger the ocean to neutralize then that could simplify things for sure but I could also see that creating new problems with regard to eliminations?

Yep. Basically, the winner will get all the elimination credits and the problem is that once you're out, you still have to take your turn or get the boot - among other things, needlessly slowing the game.

So, it looks like I'm down to three choices to make it work as desired.

1) I do the approximate 10,500 factories as would be requiredto make every land/city territory neutralize every ocean/water territory. (still waiting to hear from Ozy as to if his Advanced Map Editor can help with this)

2) I ask Tom if it wouldn't be too difficult to allow factories to fire begin turn or end turn and then set the 35ish ocean/water spaces to neutralize themselves end turn. (approximately 35 factories)

3) I wait for real-time-factories so I can set it up that 1 territory is rotationally autocaptured at the beginning of  each turn which then in real-time neutralizes the ocean. (approximately 335 factories)

I like option two and wouldn't mind if Tom could possibly give some input here on if he could set it up that factory firing points could be determined by the designer to fire pre or post turn?  And, possibly their ultimate order within pre and post as well (autoneutral before autocapure before standard for instance)?

Might this work?

Create Off-map Territories Player-1, (P2,P3..)and Off-map territory Capital-1 (C2,C3..) all with a 1 unit max. Allocate appropriately. All Auto Neutrals are alpha ordered to execute first.

Factories

AutoNeutral +1

• Member P1 -->>>>-- Factory C1; Member P2 -->>>>-- Factory C2...

AutoCapture +1

• Member, On-map territory -->>-- Factory, each Capital = (#T *#C)

Every turn the player's capital  should be captured by at least one on-map territory, otherwise they will be eliminated.

The only downside is that no one will be credited with the elimination.

Total factories = (#OnMapT * #Capitals) + #Capitals

End of Turn Continent/Factories do have a lot of uses, and I suspect they are easier to implement than Real-time factories (which are no-doubt a ways in the future), but it may make more sense for Tom to implement them both at the same time.

Can you clarify one thing for me.  When I read:

tom wrote:

Factories which change the ownership of the target territory (AutoCapture and AutoNeutral) these execute in a loop in order of alphanumeric factory name.

I assumed that this meant AutoCapture fires off before AutoNeutral and was thinking by factory "types" arranging the order.  So all AutoCapture's would fire off A-Z, then all AutoNeutral's A-Z then all Standard A-Z, or whichever are in use... But, when you write: All Auto Neutrals are alpha ordered to execute first. You're making me think that it does not order by factory type's name Alphanumerically first, but by the factory name itself.  So a factory called A1 fires before A2 before A3, etc irregardless of type?  I don't think that this will make a big difference for my ocean conundrum, but could definitely make a difference when it comes to creating quasi token's if I could assure by the name I gave that neutrality came before the granting of visibility.

berickf wrote:

Can you clarify one thing for me.  When I read:

tom wrote:

Factories which change the ownership of the target territory (AutoCapture and AutoNeutral) these execute in a loop in order of alphanumeric factory name.

I assumed that this meant AutoCapture fires off before AutoNeutral and was thinking by factory "types" arranging the order.  So all AutoCapture's would fire off A-Z, then all AutoNeutral's A-Z then all Standard A-Z, or whichever are in use... But, when you write: All Auto Neutrals are alpha ordered to execute first. You're making me think that it does not order by factory type's name Alphanumerically first, but by the factory name itself.  So a factory called A1 fires before A2 before A3, etc irregardless of type?  I don't think that this will make a big difference for my ocean conundrum, but could definitely make a difference when it comes to creating quasi token's if I could assure by the name I gave that neutrality came before the granting of visibility.

Only one way to know for sure..

>still waiting to hear from Ozy as to if his Advanced Map Editor can help with this

Sorry berickf, I just looked at this thread today (only skimmed it).  Yeah I think the WGAME is perfect for something like this where you need to add 100s to 1000s of factories, but I don't know when I could get to it.  I'm feeling a bit swamped lately.

Thanks for getting back to me Ozy.  I'll give you a quick explanation of what I'm trying to do here.  Basically, I need every land territory (and city) to AutoNeutral every water space.  That way at the beginning of every turn, so long as the next player owns any single land territory or city, the ocean will revert to neutral.  So 300ish land & city spaces need to send out the same set of commands to 35ish water spaces... so 300*35=approximately 10500 commands (factories).  Fun, yeah?

Also Ozy, I don't think that there is much of a hurry because for my off-screen view factories I am still waiting for token territories to make them perform the way I want.  Theoretically quasi tokens could be created with autoneutral, but, that would be an even bigger task with 300 needing to neutralize 300... so approximately 90,000 commands, plus the order would be crucial as all my autoneutrals would need to fire off before my autocaptures.  Plus it would create a whole new effect as visibility would be completely voided between one's turns and would only kick in at the beginning of each turn.  So, it would remove the spies from the map completely and the scouts would only show a snap shot at the beginning of one's turn and would no longer show what's happening around one's territories between turns... So, it would create a completely different effect if I tried to make tokens driven by autoneutral.  TokenTerritories would definitely be the preffered option there. 

So definitely no rush as of now but maybe you can mull over how WGAME can be used for my ocean neutrality at your convenience?

I'll also ask Tom regarding what Korrun suggested, this being the possibility of end-turn firing factories.  Then each water territory need only neutralize itself and if it were taken during a turn it would auto-neutral itself at the end of one's turn.  Simple!

berickf wrote:

..the possibility of end-turn firing factories.  Then each water territory need only neutralize itself and if it were taken during a turn it would auto-neutral itself at the end of one's turn.  Simple!

No doubt, EOT factories would make a pretty big difference.  In fact, the more I think of it, I'd say they would have just as much functional impact as RT factories. Obviously, having both would be great. I suspect that RT factories is the tougher of the two to implement.

still skimming, but if you were to put [L] in every land territory and [O] in each ocean territory, I believe you could use the existing factory maker section of the WGAME to do what you want.  

berickf wrote:

So, it looks like I'm down to three choices to make it work as desired.

1) I do the approximate 10,500 factories as would be requiredto make every land/city territory neutralize every ocean/water territory. (still waiting to hear from Ozy as to if his Advanced Map Editor can help with this)

2) I ask Tom if it wouldn't be too difficult to allow factories to fire begin turn or end turn and then set the 35ish ocean/water spaces to neutralize themselves end turn. (approximately 35 factories)

3) I wait for real-time-factories so I can set it up that 1 territory is rotationally autocaptured at the beginning of  each turn which then in real-time neutralizes the ocean. (approximately 335 factories)

I like option two and wouldn't mind if Tom could possibly give some input here on if he could set it up that factory firing points could be determined by the designer to fire pre or post turn?  And, possibly their ultimate order within pre and post as well (autoneutral before autocapure before standard for instance)?

Option two is possible - so is this supposed to be a per factory setting (fire at begin turn or end turn) or a board level setting?

It's not going to be that quick to implement either way.

tom wrote:

berickf wrote:

2) I ask Tom if it wouldn't be too difficult to allow factories to fire begin turn or end turn and then set the 35ish ocean/water spaces to neutralize themselves end turn. (approximately 35 factories)

Option two is possible - so is this supposed to be a per factory setting (fire at begin turn or end turn) or a board level setting?

It's not going to be that quick to implement either way.

Hey Tom,

It would be a factory setting, I think, as each factory on the board could be defined individually.  As I understand it, factories fire off based on a players holdings at the beginning of their turn.  "End of turn" factories would fire off based on a players holdings at the end of their turn and would be initiated as soon as they click "end turn".  So, when a factory is put into the designer the default would be the "begin-turn" firing variety with a pull down menu whereby this could be changed to the "end-turn" firing variety at the discretion of the board maker.  Eventually if RealTime factories are implemented as well then they could be included into the same pull down menu between the two other choices.

Thanks a lot,

Erick