hi all

I've updated the Player to fix a number of usability issues and bugs relating to the display of History data.

The main changes are the addition of a full page datagrid for the history log which should allow better viewing of the log data. For Premium members this is combined with the lower datagrid (where the player info sits) to allow simultaneous viewing of the log and animated history.

Standard members should now be able to see the full history log although they can't see the log view when viewing the animated history data.

I've (hopefully) fixed most of the bugs that were reported relating to incorrect display of history data. Please post in this thread if you see anything wrong.

thanks

Tom

Hi Tom,

One thing I noticed on the Castles board (which has medium fog) is that there's a Fogged log entry for any opponent's action that isn't an attack on me. Would it make sense to show log entries for any attack where the player can see the number of units in both the attacking and defending territories? Also, what about unit placement in a visible territory?

Thanks!

Fogged entries shouldn't be shown at all since this gives information... just a little, like how active someone is, but it's still info. Not sure what to do about the case where you can see number of units though.

My favorite is to count the fogged entries to determine how many opponents are remaining in a large fog game.

hi Norseman - that's an interesting point, the current criteria for showing a log entry unfogged are as follows:

1. Entry type if unfiltered (e.g. game start, boots and skips)
2. Entry is an action by a friendly seat (i.e. you or a teammate did it)
3. Entry is an attack on a friendly seat (i.e. someone is attacking you or a teammate)

The problem with showing attack entries for territories that you can see the unitcount of due to a border (which aren't friendly seats) is that it gives you too much information as you could find out who borders the territory of your enemy which you wouldn't normally have visibility of. If you look through the history log you'll see the unitcounts changing (e.g. unit losses due to attacks, unit placements etc), you just won't see the actual log entry.

IRoll11s / asm - as regards showing the 'fog' entries - I've always thought that it was reasonable to be able to count the fog entries to try and guess what your opponent(s) are doing as this is an exercise in skill and guesswork. I think I'd prefer that the entries stay visible for this reason.

tom wrote: The problem with showing attack entries for territories that you can see the unitcount of due to a border (which aren't friendly seats) is that it gives you too much information as you could find out who borders the territory of your enemy which you wouldn't normally have visibility of. If you look through the history log you'll see the unitcounts changing (e.g. unit losses due to attacks, unit placements etc), you just won't see the actual log entry.

Right, but what if you border both the attacking and defending territory so you can see both unit counts anyway?

Well currently you're not missing much useful information other than the dice rolls as you can see the unit losses on each side. Do you think it's that important?

I think it's useful and would be cool to have. I want to say Warlight had a history that was "smart" like that, and I thought it was a good idea.

*edit* It's actually quite a bit of information, considering you find out who's attacking who and troop count.  I would actually think that if a Fogged territory attacks into a non-fogged territory you should get to see what happens in the non-fogged territory too.

It's more a matter of convenience. It would be nice to scroll through the history log and be able to find quickly in the log when Player A was placing units that I could see or when Player B was attacking Player C. Right now I skip the history viewer slider ahead a bit, step forward and back a little to see if I found what I'm looking for, and then skip ahead more if I didn't.

Would it be possible to have the textual table as the default display in the History tab? Right now I click on History and it starts loading the movie, which takes a while and wastes time if I just want to view the text, which loads quickly. Also, can the text read from the from most recent move to the oldest move, as opposed to oldest to newest?

Kjeld wrote: Would it be possible to have the textual table as the default display in the History tab? Right now I click on History and it starts loading the movie, which takes a while and wastes time if I just want to view the text, which loads quickly. Also, can the text read from the from most recent move to the oldest move, as opposed to oldest to newest?

I second this!

Yertle wrote:

Kjeld wrote: Would it be possible to have the textual table as the default display in the History tab? Right now I click on History and it starts loading the movie, which takes a while and wastes time if I just want to view the text, which loads quickly. Also, can the text read from the from most recent move to the oldest move, as opposed to oldest to newest?

I second this!

triple thirded

and would add that it would be nice to see two additional items in the history:
- the color being attacked (right now its color of attacker - name of attacker - name of attacked - dice rolls). so you could add either another color box ala:
 ->  (substituting boxes instead of smilies of course!) or turn the names colored (similar to the Fish).

- a shortcut to view the board at that particular move. don't know if that would be a snapshot of the movie, or a popdown like the Fish.

Norseman / Yertle - fair points, I am happy to implement that as it's pretty straightforward, however it is a major change to the way that fog works so perhaps it should be discussed more widely first?

Kjeld - yes, it can be the default - but the wait time is due to the history data loading (generated on the server and loaded by the player), not the movie, the movie takes about half a second to generate. i.e. you will have the same delay whichever shows first. I'd say this would need to be a user preference option as I suspect others prefer it the other way.

tom wrote: Norseman / Yertle - fair points, I am happy to implement that as it's pretty straightforward, however it is a major change to the way that fog works so perhaps it should be discussed more widely first?

I'm up for it being more widely discussed, but I'm not sure I understand how it is a major change to the way that fog works (Fog shouldn't change, at least this is my understanding).  As currently you can see these types of actions in the Movie anyhow (although there are no loss blips).

Well it gives more information to players so it means Fog is actually less effective.

For example, if I can see who is attacking a territory that I don't occupy that means I can't see normally via Fog then that could potentially affect the gameplay of a board - think Salem's Dusk for example, it reveals stuff that wouldn't normally be revealed given the fog level.

tom wrote: Well it gives more information to players so it means Fog is actually less effective.

For example, if I can see who is attacking a territory that I don't occupy that means I can't see normally via Fog then that could potentially affect the gameplay of a board - think Salem's Dusk for example, it reveals stuff that wouldn't normally be revealed given the fog level.

It shouldn't give any more information to players though.  If you watch play by play of a movie then you see that information anyway.

You don't (well, you shouldn't!)

The movie should show the the change in the unitcount in the bordered territory but not which territory or seat is attacking it.

tom wrote: You don't (well, you shouldn't!)

The movie should show the the change in the unitcount in the bordered territory but not which territory or seat is attacking it.

Hmmm I think you're correct.  You may be able to come to a conclusion as to who is attacking who, by looking at turn order, unit placement, if the attacker wins, but I guess it may not be completely known who attacked who without thinking.

I did test this by having it set so that you could see any log entry which resulted in a change to the board state between turns but this resulted in a lot of extra stuff showing in the log which you wouldn't normally see.

Did you limit the attacks visible to those where both the attacking and defending territory are visible on the board? That would make a difference.