So you're saying the only way to prevent a black victory is to have black win first? I love it.

BD, this is the position I thought you had in mind.  I did say the defense for white here was "in the style of" the game I posted, not the actual position in that game.  Is this the position you intended for black instead of what happened in the game Ed posted?  If so, that is what I was replying to.  If not then I have no idea what position you are referring to.

White blocks the 5th row immediately.  Any other move loses to the bottom two rows advancing a unit with black transferring in the 5th row.

I was trying to defend down column 3 as a defense when black goes forward two in row 5- which was dumb. The decision tree (more like a forest) in my own head grow too large, blotting out the first sensible defense.

Column 4 should stave off a row-5-forward-two opening.

I still think the column 3 defense can work against either row 5 or a row 4 opening. Mongrel, I think the mistake you made in that game with BlackDog (http://www.wargear.net/games/player/20297) was that you moved your column 3 unit into the 4th column... there didn't seem to be a reason for that move instead of moving a unit down from columns 1 or 2.

Agree that that was the mistake (move 126).

Blackdog, a challenger!

Yeah, Norse has a potential block, I'm not convinced it can't be beat, but it certianly complicates things for black. As far as the column 4 thing, I thought we were sure that was a losing move?

And yes, Hugh, the image above is the winning situation for black. If white blocks the 5th row immediately, he still loses in 2 more moves.

So, as far as I can tell, if black starts out 2 in the 5th row, the only possible defense is the sequence of moves Norseman played in his example above.

BlackDog wrote:

So, as far as I can tell, if black starts out 2 in the 5th row, the only possible defense is the sequence of moves Norseman played in his example above.

Black still wins in the playout in my head.

BlackDog wrote:

And yes, Hugh, the image above is the winning situation for black. If white blocks the 5th row immediately, he still loses in 2 more moves.

The image is from the game http://www.wargear.net/games/player/20243 , so I disagree.

There is no variation in which black forces a win in 2 moves from that position.  I think black still wins though!

It is actually simple to prove that black wins in 2 moves. First he moves his 4th row man over to the 4th column. At that point white can either move any two columns down one row (clearly a losing move), or one column down two rows. No matter which column he moves down in, black moves his 4th row man two columns forward, at which point he can fortifiy both his 4th and 5th row men to anywhere on the 4th row, blocking the man white moved in the previous turn.

No matter what you do, don't click on any of the games I post to look at the history to see what I am saying :)

What your proof shows is that white can't defend with moves alone and only one guy transferring. White moves outside the 5x5 playing area (the very very bottom row) to connect up to the top, so that he has two units to transfer into rows 4,5.

I'm not kidding about looking at the last game I posted - it really does have an answer to your proof.

White can block, and moving troops from the top to the bottom is clever and stalls Black some, but it also "traps" those troops at the bottom.
I haven't seen White move around to column 1 from the right side of the board, but I also haven't seen where White gets a "free move" to do that.

Allright, I'm feeling especially delusional right now. I have posted some Five games Ranked. My offer is this: I will play the 4th column defense to the 5th row attack. FREE RANKING POINTS, LIMITED TIME OFFER!!!

If I get Black, we abort and I create another game.

BlackDog wrote: Yeah, Norse has a potential block, I'm not convinced it can't be beat, but it certianly complicates things for black. As far as the column 4 thing, I thought we were sure that was a losing move?

After running through the other options for white at the critical turn in http://www.wargear.net/games/player/20297  , I agree that black can make the correct moves to ensure victory. So two down col 3 is bad if black starts two right in row 5

As to column 4, It was probably the first reasonable defense we thought of that just got lost in working out all the other column options. I think column 4 can stymie black's offense (and if BLACK is not careful can score a quick win for WHITE), taking the match to the initial rows/colmuns. But when the game gets to slicing up multiple lines already drawn, the analysis becomes too much (in my head).

As Hugh said in the snapshot post, white can get around black (the only thing white can do) then the next turn, NO MATTER WHAT BLACK DOES (except if black moves down and right to block the wrap, but this seems to not be in black's best interest), white can use the wrap fortify to block any pair of advancing rows, and has one free turn to set up something else.

Again, it stalls black, but doesn't secure a victory for either side (assuming pefrect play).

We're obviously beyond the point of asking whether the map is balanced- in fact I never asked that question- but what we can 99% conclude is

A.) "the" sequence of correct moves for black independent of whites moves does not exist, though in some situations it is incredibly close, where white has only move to save his ass. 

B.) A conditional solution, one that reacts to white's defenses might still be out there.

C.) starting two out in row 5 does not grant an easy (i.e. 7-8 moves) conditional solution, if white goes two down column 4.

If you have a dispute over moves, start a private match! That's what BD and I have done.

Hugh wrote: Allright, I'm feeling especially delusional right now. I have posted some Five games Ranked. My offer is this: I will play the 4th column defense to the 5th row attack. FREE RANKING POINTS, LIMITED TIME OFFER!!!

If I get Black, we abort and I create another game.

Damn you, beat me to the chase. I believe you, so I wont join.

Sorry dude. Thunder-stealer.

Ok, I was wrong about my above 2 move post, Hugh has set me straight :).

Mongrel wrote:

We're obviously beyond the point of asking whether the map is balanced- in fact I never asked that question- but what we can 99% conclude is

I think it's still a matter of balance.  If Black can NOT lose then it's an unbalanced map IMO, especially when there is no dice luck.

There will be a fix to the map soon enough to infuse balance. But right now we're solving a math problem.

Hold please.