Just curious for sake of conversation, it's not an important issue for me...

It's been my very unscientific, anecdotal observation that the creators of boards don't seem to do as well as I'd expect on their own boards.   My expectations are that they'd know all the tricks and strategies and generally win or be close to winning each game (presuming reasonable dice luck).   But, I honestly can't remember playing against a board creator and seeing one win.   And I do recall reading one board designer (can't remember who) lamenting in these forums that they never do as well as they'd like on their own boards.  So, I'm just wondering (I guess mostly from board creators) if that's just my experience or a common occurrence? 

If that's not common, then my observations are just coincidental.  If it's common, is there a reason for it?   If so, some hypothesis:

• Perhaps just as some song great songwriters aren't necessarily great performers, a board designer might just not be a great risk player.
• Board designers consciously or unconsciously hold back because they don't want to take advantage of, or are self-conscious, of their inside knowledge,  or maybe they are just more concerned with having the board played than how well they do on it?

From my own perspective, I'd say it's mostly your first hypothesis, though the explanation overlaps with your second as well.

At least half the reason I'm on WarGear is because I enjoy designing boards -- it's a low-stress outlet for my creative energy. I enjoy playing, too, but I don't tend to put as much time or energy into games as I imagine many of the top competitive players here do. And I think the reason for that is that the competition is, for me, secondary to just enjoying the game. Not to say I don't play to win, or that I haven't occasionally cursed after a bad dice roll or a stupid loss. Anyhow, that attitude applies to my own boards even more, probably, because I have a vested interest in making sure that people enjoy playing the game. And that enjoyment starts with me.

Ha, good topic MH.

I tend to break the designers into two categories when observing their play:

- the casual designer (designs 1 or a few boards, or if on the site long enough, 10-15 boards). Most of these folks are still focused on their gameplay and they tend to play their own boards a lot and perform generally well on them.
- the true designer, who's focus on the site is primarily on creating new boards. They tend to play their own boards only occasionally after an initial impetus to get the board some play. These tend to lose at a high proportion, but it doesn't seem to bother them as others seem to be getting some enjoyment out of their creation.

The exceptions to the above, from my memory banks, would be Kjeld and Yertle, who have both designed a large amount of maps and perform well on them as well as other maps.

I've seen designers do well on several boards. Even one or two who's on top of the public rankings on it. I guess there is no set rule.

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Five/About : Board creator 6th, co-created is 2nd.

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Ten+-+Propagate/About : Board creator is 7th

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Seven/About : Board creator is 5th, co-creator is 3rd. 

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Kensington/About : Board creator is 8th

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Bowling/About : Board creator is 7th.

And this is only on my favourite boards. There probably are a lot more where the creator is top 10. Probably 1 or 2 more for both Alpha and Amidon 

Sure it is not a "rule" that creators are poor on their boards, but I have commiserated with other board creators on this topic.  Creating boards is a lot of work, and you are really excited to play it once it goes live - and then others come along and wipe you off the table.  It's probably not that dramatic, but it can feel that way.

http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Gunslinger/Rankings/10/

I co-created this board.  I'm currently ranked 277th.  

Pratik wrote:

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Five/About : Board creator 6th, co-created is 2nd.

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Ten+-+Propagate/About : Board creator is 7th

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Seven/About : Board creator is 5th, co-creator is 3rd. 

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Kensington/About : Board creator is 8th

- http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Bowling/About : Board creator is 7th.

Just as a point of reference, however, the first 3 of those boards are HIGHLY strategic, so there's a much smaller pool of people who play those and/or are good at them.  Also, likely that you have to have a specifically strategic board mind just to create one.

Same is true with Bowling and Gunslinger:  those are head to head type games, which means that it's a limited pool of entrants in the first place.  (although doesn't explain why A37 is so bad at his own board.....)

Just throwing that out there....

Boards where the creator is #1:

http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Axis+V+Allies+Tech
http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/LOTGR

I'm sure there are others I don't know of.

Of course, to be high ranked usually implies playing a lot. Korrun has 100% score on Battle of Bladensburg but is ranked modestly since he's only played 6 public games.

Korrun cannot be defeated on that board. This is known.

Thingol wrote: Korrun cannot be defeated on that board. This is known.

Babbs, berickf, and sirdakka can beat me pretty consistently. One more reason not to play more public games on it. I'm ranked number 2 on Reef though.

Another possibility is that as a designer you have a specific vision in mind for your board and how you want it to play. That idea doesn't always turn out to be the optimum strategy for the board however.

For what it's worth, I only recently got into the top 50 on Invention.

I think I'm in the same category as Kjeld.  I like playing, but I don't take it very seriously.  Not that I don't try to win, but I almost never bother to go back and look at the history.  I like to think that if I did, I would rank higher on my own boards and in general, but it's more fun for me to just drop in to a game and take a turn in 2 minutes, rather than spending 10 minutes reviewing the history and thinking out every detail.

I do play better on my own boards in general, because I usually play many many test games getting the gameplay figured out, so I have the general strategies pretty well figured out.  There are only a handful of boards that are not my own where I've played them enough to really feel completely comfortable on them.  The rest I kind of bumble around on.  And although I know it would help, I pretty much never go watch the history on someone else's games when I play on a new board.

I guess occasionally I do hold back when playing a newb on a board of mine, especially if it's not newb friendly (iwo jima and Finite State Machine are good examples), but in those cases, even holding back it's usually easy to trounce a new player.

berickf always analyzes the histories.

Korrun wrote:

berickf always analyzes the histories.

It would be quite scary if he didn't, considering the level he plays at.

Korrun wrote:

berickf always analyzes the histories.

Some feel he may even 'write' the histories. 

I love crushing designers on their own board....especially Ratsy. :)

Kjeld wrote:

At least half the reason I'm on WarGear is because I enjoy designing boards -- it's a low-stress outlet for my creative energy. I enjoy playing, too, but I don't tend to put as much time or energy into games as I imagine many of the top competitive players here do. And I think the reason for that is that the competition is, for me, secondary to just enjoying the game. Not to say I don't play to win, or that I haven't occasionally cursed after a bad dice roll or a stupid loss. Anyhow, that attitude applies to my own boards even more, probably, because I have a vested interest in making sure that people enjoy playing the game. And that enjoyment starts with me.

I feel similarly about my motivations.  I started as a player (on TOS), but the option to design was intriguing, and once I was hooked it evolved into 95% of the reason that I still play.

I'm a second tier player at best, and I'd take any edge I could from knowledge of how my boards work, but a good board doesn't have any "tricks."  Yes, I'm always looking for an innovative way to use the unique set of features that the designer offers and many of my games are unrisk-like, but it's all straight mechanics and I do my best to document them, so I don't feel that I have any edge except perhaps at the very beginning when I release the board.  That said, I test-play my boards with the best players I can find - so there goes that edge :} Most of them can beat me right out of the box.

Mostly Harmless's initial post struck a chord with me - his comment about song-writers not necessarily being good performers is not an unreasonable analogy. I'm a musician and song-writer, and though I enjoy performing and don't think I'm a bad performer, I'm not really motivated to put the work into 'playing the game.' Not unlike designing games on WarGear, I'm quite satisfied these days just writing songs and putting them out there for the small audience of people (mostly other musicians) that stumble across them. MH's analogy also resonates with me because as a musician (player) I consider myself to be pretty good at a lot of things, but not top tier at any - so I'm a song-writer (designer).

At the risk of letting my worlds collide..

https://soundcloud.com/m57

M57 wrote:

Mostly Harmless's initial post struck a chord with me - his comment about song-writers not necessarily being good performers is not an unreasonable analogy. I'm a musician and song-writer, and though I enjoy performing and don't think I'm a bad performer, I'm not really motivated to put the work into 'playing the game.' Not unlike designing games on WarGear, I'm quite satisfied these days just writing songs and putting them out there for the small audience of people (mostly other musicians) that stumble across them. MH's analogy also resonates with me because as a musician (player) I consider myself to be pretty good at a lot of things, but not top tier at any - so I'm a song-writer (designer).

At the risk of letting my worlds collide..

https://soundcloud.com/m57

I thought you were a physicist, or do you do both?

Study No 1 is fine, rest is... erhm, not my thing, but could easily be at the top of the mainstream charts.

redshift wrote:

M57 wrote:

I thought you were a physicist, or do you do both?

Study No 1 is fine, rest is... erhm, not my thing, but could easily be at the top of the mainstream charts.

Thanks for listening RS.

Nah and Nah..

I'm a middle school teacher. Math, music and public speaking.

Mainstream requires 5 or less chords, preferably triadic and diatonic, a real chorus, and umh, I think a good dose of double entendre (of the risqué variety) in the lyric.  I do try to switch up genres so I think it's the rare person who would connect to more than 2 or 3 of my songs.  I'm thrilled when someone finds one or two to be palatable.

Back On Topic, I think I do the same with my boards.. The only two that are related mechanically are War of the Roses and Ren Wars.  WoTR is an homage to the board game I remember playing in college.

Some reviewers complained about the layout and lack of choke points but as you can see I was aiming for the visual gestalt of the original.  Ren Wars was designed to be a sequel that was more WarGear-ish, whatever that means.

At the risk of letting my worlds collide..

https://soundcloud.com/m57

I like your music, M57, enjoying "Don't Give up the Moon" right now...

Amidon37 wrote:

Sure it is not a "rule" that creators are poor on their boards, but I have commiserated with other board creators on this topic.  Creating boards is a lot of work, and you are really excited to play it once it goes live - and then others come along and wipe you off the table.  It's probably not that dramatic, but it can feel that way.

http://www.wargear.net/boards/view/Gunslinger/Rankings/10/

I co-created this board.  I'm currently ranked 277th.  

 

if it makes you feel any better i'm 293...but i've only apparently played it 2x publically.  :^)