Random psych question I was thinking about today:

I'd think that human nature says that everyone, to some extent, has a voice in their head that says "ACK...the dice were terrible to me in that game, and so I don't feel as bad about that loss."

So what about the reverse:  When you win, and you had great luck/dice over the course of the game, do you find yourself saying:

1) "Yeeha...finally some redemption for all those bad beats."
2) "Ugh....that probably sucks for my opponent, because that win was more dice than good play."
3) Do you never look at the luck stats when you win and/or lose?

For me it is almost always 1).  However, if there is some serious BS with the dice, like 7 taking out 20 and it's a game changer, I may feel a little bad.

I used to play a lot of poker on-line, and would have the same reaction when I would river someone... Don't really feel bad about it because that's just the game (unless it was like a 2-outer or something).

Number 3... I'm always sure it is bad playing.... sometimes other people play even more badly than me and I win but it is alway a matter of bad playing.

I like the reaction Chris posted about poker. Poker has been my main source of income since i was 16 and there's one thing i see everywhere. Every player thinks he is the unluckiest son of a (..) in the world. This just is not true. The thing is, when you have 70% to win a hand, and you actually win it, its normal. So it doesnt stand out. When you lose it however you are unlucky and you notice it. Also us humans focus on the negative more than the positive. Luck evens out in the long run, so just hold on to that. If you are the better player you WILL win. Its all about mindset :)

Yuriz - That's definitely the way I try to look at it.  Luck might be painful today, but tomorrow you're gonna reap the benefits, but I think the average person has a hard time seeing the latter.

just for the record that was meant to be funny.... nobody ever finds me funny. (sobs quietly and recedes to the corner.......)

The best players out there should see luck as the engine that gives them additional advantage.   The luck of the poker player who is losing is going to be neutral on the next deal, but better players can smell when that player is going on "tilt" as a result of previous losses and are able to swoop in for the kill.

From wikipedia: Research indicates that, at the subconscious level, our minds have a tendency to focus on the optimistic while, at the conscious level, we have a tendency to focus on the negative. 

You would think the best players out there understand the role that streaks play in true random distributions ..and through study and practice somehow manage to find and maintain the right balance of these conscious/subconscious attributes.  We've all seen a number of very good poker pros complain about a bad beat, and so it may be tempting to say that this may not be the case with all good players, but I wonder that in most of these cases it's more for show ..and perhaps about intimidation.

There has to be something that stops the better players from going on tilt, and this is the same skill that lets the better WG players have the confidence to roll the dice after losing 5 or 10 in a row (provided that it is still the correct play for that position) -- or even more difficult, to NOT roll after losing 5 or 10 in a row because it is the incorrect play (many players mistakenly think that after each successive losing roll the probability of the next being a winning roll increases.)

For me, I only look at the luck stats when I feel that a game has been going badly for several turns or when I feel that I have been getting really lucky for a few turns.  When the later has happened and I win I feel badly; especially if it was a come from behind win.  Otherwise, I just ignore it since I know that it is part of the game and an new game will be started soon.

but I wonder that in most of these cases it's more for show ..and perhaps about intimidation.

This is an incredibly astute observation about poker players, and one that I haven't thought about before.  Do you think this is why Helmuth can get so absolutely unhinged, even though he's so good?

There has to be something that stops the better players from going on tilt, and this is the same skill that lets the better WG players have the confidence to roll the dice after losing 5 or 10 in a row (provided that it is still the correct play for that position) -- or even more difficult, to NOT roll after losing 5 or 10 in a row because it is the incorrect play (many players mistakenly think that after each successive losing roll the probability of the next being a winning roll increases.)

These are both difficult to control urges, but I think you're definitely right.  Go watch histories of Black Dog's play (and I don't choose him just because he's a top player).  He has an absolutely uncanny ability to squelch the urge to attack too soon and once he's started to over-extend.

BorisTheFrugal wrote:

  Do you think this is why Helmuth can get so absolutely unhinged, even though he's so good?

Helmuth is exactly the person I was thinking of when I wrote the post.  He may single-handedly be the reason I don't play the game (though I enjoy watching it). When he complains about a bad beat, he can actually get into your head and make you feel guilty about winning a hand despite your own incompetence.  The prospect of sitting down at a table with him scares the snot out of me. I think I'd be tilting before I put a chip in the pot. 

Funny, i immediately thought of Hellmuth as well. Though i don't think its an act. I think he sincerely freaks out. Thats why i WOULD like to sit at a table with him, play horrible, get a suckout and enjoy the show :)

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that's part of his game.  He's thinking about the next time he'll be sitting at a table with you, and he wants everyone in the room to know that even though you beat him, he's still the better player.  On the other hand, you're right, for those that enjoy the show there are probably very few things in poker more enjoyable than taking Helmuth out on the river.

Since we've diverged from the original thread (and since I'm the OP....I'll allow it... ).

In opposition to, M57, when I see Helmuth meltdown...I really feel he is melting down internally.
I can't remember the tourney, but go watch the clips of him from the Main Event like 3-4 years ago...I think 2009 perhaps.
He was up against someone I didn't know, and he went ballistic, and ended up having to get warned because he was insulting the opposing player.
I see that, I can't help but think he's melting down internally.

But I will agree, I'd never want to face him:  Not because I don't think I could handle the outburst, but more because if the outburst never comes (ie: he DOESN'T gets rivered before I have to face him) then his game is so far ahead of the norm, he'd be hard to beat.
It's almost like the outburst is his Achilles heal.

Now, considering your point, though, and running through the top players in my head, I could easily see Matusow being an example or your theory.
When he goes ballistic, (to me at least) it looks much more calculated.

I got us started down this path - my bad.  I just couldn't resist because there are so many similarities between WG and poker.

Hellmuth may have that "Poker Brat" act as part of an image he creates to intimidate people and/or to get TV time and endorsements, but I think it's mostly real.   He's been that way ever since he burst onto the poker scene, and after he got married and had kids he mellowed a little.   Even now though, he'll tilt off chips if he's ticked at someone - happens frequently on Poker After Dark.

Too bad.  I'm disappointed in him.  Well then, it's gotta be all that more satisfying to take him out.

But seriously, it's hard to imagine a good poker player who easily tilts.

I definitely agree.
Since everyone is sitting on the same odds to win any given hand, the only advantage that you have is your attitude and your ability to control your emotions.

(Chris - As an avid fan of Poker, you don't have to apologize about the hijack, I'm fine with it)

And so where do the other poker fans from this site play?
Are you all just home game guys, or do you actually play online?
I played party poker for a number of years, but got out of the game when I changed careers.
Since then, that site has taken a nose dive.
Didn't know if others have suggestions of which other sites have a good interface and good gameplay (all completely legal, of course).

I play home games - probably every 2 months we get 6-8 of us together and have a tournament.  I also play live in casinos when I go to Vegas, but it's been a couple years for that. 

I used to play all the time on Party Poker, but then in 2006 they passed that law that made it illegal for banks to transfer money in/out.   I then won a freeroll tournament on Absolute Poker for $25 (problem of getting money on the site - SOLVED!), and was playing penny/nickel games with that for years.  Then "black Friday" in April shut down most poker sites to US players.   I liked Absolute Poker a lot, but they along with Full Tilt and Poker Stars were impacted hard by the government shut down in April.  Now a US player physically cannot play (they block you) for real money (but can for play money) on most poker sites.

BorisTheFrugal wrote:

And so where do the other poker fans from this site play?
Are you all just home game guys, or do you actually play online?
I played party poker for a number of years, but got out of the game when I changed careers.
Since then, that site has taken a nose dive.
Didn't know if others have suggestions of which other sites have a good interface and good gameplay (all completely legal, of course).

Home games are great, and when in Vegas or at a casino, I'll venture into the poker rooms. But, online is so convenient... and addictive.

I liked playing on Pokerstars, especially with the variety of game type, tournament type and stakes level available. Since the shutdown (glad I wasn't on FT!!), there are some other sites up, some expected to go down.

A friend of mine has a theory about some of the other sites - he likes Bodog because they aren't based in the U.S., they take U.S. players with an easy transfer, and they've made a bunch of moves indicating that the DoJ would have to bring it into the realm of international law if they wanted to take them down. (e.g. they moved to .eu, possibly to avoid seizure) So, he believes some of the other sites will go down before Bodog does. (If it sounds like wishful thinking, it probably is.)

I play at RedBet. Its a Boss Media Network room. Not really the biggest or best site but lots of idiots and easy tournaments + i get 30% rakeback. As a MTT player in dont really rake that much but still... If anyone is interested my name there is BubbleBoy. (with the dot behind it).

So what are the biggest wins so far?

Hugh - Thanks for the info, maybe I'll look into Bodog.
But I predict that your evaluation is correct:  wishful thinking.

Yuriz - Not sure what question you're asking:  What's my biggest take in a night, or what was my best play in a given game (best bluff/takedown)?  I'm assuming you mean the former.

I was a small stakes player, always, as it was just a form of entertainment, with the benefit of also being a supplemental income.
At the time, I was managing a restaurant/bar in a college town, so I'd be working odd hours (getting off a 12 hour shift at 4AM).
When I got home, there was no better way to wind down after work than sitting down on the couch, with a glass of bourbon, and raking money away from drunk idiots who are convinced that middle pair with a queen kicker is a great hand to go all in on.

I've certainly had a few nights that I went on a tear, and made a killing, but nothing huge.
There were a few great nights where I was probably up maybe 3K in a single night.
But then again, that's 5-6 tables at a time of $20 N/L tournaments, for 8 hours, so it's not terribly impressive.
And, of course, those nights would undoubtedly drain all my karma, and I'd spend the following 7 days slowly giving it all back...

So now it's your turn to regale us with the tale of your best take down, of which I'm sure you've had some good ones.