Moral question of the day:

You're playing a fog game.
You realize that one player has a significant lead, but you also know that other players might not realize it.
What is reasonable (withing the morals of the game) to do/say to garner support from other losing players against said leading player?

To one extreme, my instinct says that all other players posting screen shots of the board as they see it so that everyone can see through the fog would likely be seen as defeating the purpose of a fog game.

On the other end, if you send a private message to someone to suggest an alliance against the leader would be generally considered within the rules of the game.

There's a gray area in the middle that might be posting a message to all players saying "Congrats to XXX, looks like you're going to win."
It could be seen as a surreptitious way of announcing that all players should attack the single opponent, but it's not really negating the concept of fog.

Discuss....

Anyone here that designs boards can tell you that it's not that difficult to make a false screen shot.

At the very least, it is way against the spirit of a fogged game and I myself never engage in this behavior. Light fog is different. All players can see all of the leader's continent grabs, so  as long as army counts aren't being traded, it makes sense that you might say "Hey, he's getting +30, we need to stop attacking each other and attack him."

To M57:  I guess it wasn't as much a question of what is possible, and more what is moral.

My instinct tells me that #1 goes against the moral code of the game, but that #2 is par for the course.

So is #3 allowed too, or is it tantamount to cheating?
You're revealing a game status, but hiding it in a legitimate comment/compliment.

I was looking at more of the philosophical argument of what is appropriate and what crosses the line for good-faith-gaming?

To Hugh: That was my feeling, but didn't know whether others felt that if you're the one starting to run away with the board that it's your job, as the one in the lead, to expect that all opponents could turn guns on your, and as such, you should make sure you're prepared.

I don't like any of these. I don't do any of these. I think any behavior in a fogged game giving away fogged information is against the spirit of the fog. Against the rules? Nothing has been put in place, but what's the point of fog if the fogged information is being lifted by a post?

"Looks like XXX is going to win" might be information only you have. Accept the loss, you lost, that's that, play another game. Again, light fog, everyone can see who the leader is, but by saying that in a heavier fog setting, you might be lifting the fog. I'm not a fan when I see this. BTW I almost never see this, so I'm not sure who I'm yelling at here :)

I like to play games here because I like to solve problems.  Trying to figure out who is in control and where I should attack in a fog game is something I like to think about.  Just like when solving problems I don't like looking up the answer, I don't want to play in fog games where people "give me the answer" by saying who is in control of what.

And no one has the complete picture anyways, so any information given has a pretty good chance of being misleading.  And since I don't want to give misleading information, I tend not to share what I see in a fog game.

I have shared and sought out information from time to time, but it is not a regular habit by any means.

Is it moral/legal to do so? Some of it is ok, doing it a lot is just annoying.  You are not breaking any rules, but you are probably killing the fun. 

i don't know about that. if i were to get into a position in a fogged game (take fall of rome for example) and i happened to snake my way around and see that Hugh had taken over half the bonus areas; I don't think it would be 'wrong' to post something that said "Hugh is getting a Hughe bonus as he's got half the bonses on the board". If in a non-fog game you see someone about to wipe the board with everyone and noone is doin anything about it...you'd post something similar to the above

Fog doesn't change the fact that your opponent's perception of who is most powerful can play a large part in your success...it just limits their infomation gathering ability.

But i do share the same thoughts as above - i don't tend to do it often

Amidon37 wrote:

, but you are probably killing the fun. 

This came out a little stronger then I meant - some once in awhile is ok, overdoing it is, well, overdoing it.

weathertop wrote:

i don't know about that. if i were to get into a position in a fogged game (take fall of rome for example) and i happened to snake my way around and see that Hugh had taken over half the bonus areas; I don't think it would be 'wrong' to post something that said "Hugh is getting a Hughe bonus as he's got half the bonses on the board". If in a non-fog game you see someone about to wipe the board with everyone and noone is doin anything about it...you'd post something similar to the above

This is a good example.  I'm actually a bit surprised that I haven't seen it done yet on any board let alone FoR. I actually have given thought to what I would do if something like this ever occurred, and believe it or not, my first thoughts would be those of suspicion.  I don't know what psycho-game theory says here, but my instincts tell me that while it could be true, it's just as likely (if not more than likely) to be a lie.  E.g., it's just as likely that the player who is giving the information is in a mediocre to weak position and looking to steal the game.

Now if it were the case that on average there was a 65% chance of announcement being false, claims like these would almost amount to trash talk.

What if I were to announce "Don't take West Africa; if you do I've got 15 armies in Brazil that will eat you for breakfast."  What's the difference in this case?  Is it inappropriate to give out this information if it's true?  What if it's a lie?

What if someone describes your actual position (and you are in a strong position), and you counter with an equally plausible lie that would have everyone attacking your accuser.  Is this unethical?

My actual position is Que Sera Sera.  Players that engage in this behavior do so at their own risk.  People who lie will eventually become known as liars and the consequence is that eventually no one believes them.

It's people who tell the truth that are a little trickier to deal with, but there are ways. Realize that people who tell the truth expose inferential information about themselves in the process.  A corollary to this is that when such a player is NOT making these types of statements, you can combine this information with your unique knowledge of the position and eliminate the possibility of certain scenarios.

Now there's an interesting theory.
I guess I've never seen the comment boxes in games as a tool for the game.

For me, it's always been a place to:
1) Make particularly off-color jokes at the expense of my friends during private games, or
2) Lament the poor dice that I got that cost me a game, or
3) (VERY seldom, unfortunately) Apologize for uncharacteristically great dice that I did get ("I'm sorry, I know I was down to only 5 armies, there's absolutely no reason that I should have been able to run the table on you...I just got hot with the dice).

Never have I seen it as a means to an end - using it as a psychological tool against my opponents (honestly or dishonestly).
I'll have to consider that usage in a few of my coming games and see how it works.

yeah i've not considered...well i have, but not put into acutuality..of using misleading information. to take from RB..."that's just how i roll". all of this commentary, if ever used, would be used sparingly anyway.

but to your other point, yes i would agree that by saying something of that ilk, i would be tipping my hand a bit as well.

Slightly ironic -

http://www.wargear.net/games/view/53658

In my opinion, it's about how to get the win.  Showing a Screenshot can do some major damage against yourself if you show to the wrong people (ie the real leader instead of the joker surrounding you).  That's more than likely not going to get you the win, at least I would potentially use it to eliminate you depending on the board.

Saying congrats before the game is over is annoying and you look dumb.  Don't do it for any game.

I think private message alliance or flat out hey I think that guy is way out in front is the best way to go.  I know even if I don't reply I would probably take it into consideration, of course there's a good chance the person you call out will have a say too, which can give away more information on his hand and potentially yours.  In short, I like to use that info but not give it out.

Do what's smart to win (and cheating is not smart).

I think I said something one time - something like: "I don't know if you have seen this, but player X is getting a ton more units than us because of all his territories on the right side of the map, maybe we should lay off each other for a while?"

IIRC, player X won that one pretty handedly anyway.

Amidon37 wrote:

Slightly ironic -

http://www.wargear.net/games/view/53658

 

Hilarious!!

I use comments in all kinds of ways, but my favorite is to give a riddle to the rest of the players, like "Lot of yellow up in here"  when there's more than one yellow player on the board.

A lie with a bit of truth to it is the most dangerous kind.  As for screen shots, I feel like that's just plain foolish.  You give away more than you get. 

My original question was because a player did #3 to me in a game recently.
I ended up with the win anyway, so ultimately didn't matter, but it did strike a chord with me, and as such was curious what the group consensus was.

He followed me, in turns, so he posted it right after my turn was finished.
I spent the next week anxiously awaiting each of 5-6 slow player's turns, waiting to see if any of them read his post and decided to retaliate against me.

It appears that many of you feel it's within the bounds of the game to do this, and looking back it appears to be a good tactic, because it definitely affected (effected??) my mindset and preparation for the next turn.

If I'd been a player in the game you describe, it may not have affected my thinking all that much.  The player just before you usually looks dominant only because nobody's had a chance to re-take the things he's taken.