Hi all,

I'm designing a new 4-player map based on the Ravenloft D&D module.

The map is in very early design stage -   http://www.wargear.net/boards/designer/6897

The map will have magic items sprinkled about which will behave differently for a player based on the persona a player takes (which can change from turn to turn).  Magic items will add a different amount of reinforcements (life force factory flask) to a player based on the item itself and the persona the player has at the start of their turn.  Personas are fighter, wizard, ranger, cleric, and vampire.

I have a list of magic items I'd like to employ as well as locations in Barovia, Castle Ravenloft and the countryside.  However, I'd appreciate any ideas or feedback for items or locations folks would like to see.

sounds cool, sign me up as a tester

Will do SG. Thanks.

I've got 3 players set up currently. I'll invite you after I get the 4th player up and running.

Ok, I need to tap once more into our great reservoir of mathematicians, both to confirm I have got the correct amount of permutations and to gauge how much work I have left.

Originally, the map was to have 9 magic items, with any 5 granting victory. Thus far, I've only gotten any 4 items set up. To do the any 4, I came out to 56 variations. Does that sound correct?

9 choose 4 is 126...

Easiest way to that, perhaps -- instead of making 126 separate continents of each possible combination of any 4 -- is this:

1. Give each player an off-board capital, I'll call them "counters".

2. Cap each of counter at 4 units.

3. Set each counter to add +3 to each other player's counter. Note: name these continents so that they come first alphabetically (so that they trigger first).

4. Set each magic item to give a -1 bonus to each opponent's counter (set it up so that the magic item plus your counter gives the bonus to the other counters).

Once a player has 4 magic items, it will neutralize every other player's capital, eliminating those players. That might be the easiest route, and make it easy to set up an any-3 and any-5 scenario.

Yes, that does sound easier, especially since I want to get to the 5-item version too.  Since I have 2 working designs - the Perils design which you're in and the Ravenloft design which has some of the newer functionality in it already, I'll wait until the test games for the Perils complete and then update it for the offboard counters.

Now, for the 126, can you explain how you got to that figure? I thought I might have missed some, but 56 is a heckuva long way from 126.  Are you sure the 126 count isn't taking into account positioning (ie -  1 2 3 4 is considered a different permutation than 4 3 2 1)?

Kjeld wrote:

Easiest way to that, perhaps -- instead of making 126 separate continents of each possible combination of any 4 -- is this:

1. Give each player an off-board capital, I'll call them "counters".

2. Cap each of counter at 4 units.

3. Set each counter to add +3 to each other player's counter. Note: name these continents so that they come first alphabetically (so that they trigger first).

4. Set each magic item to give a -1 bonus to each opponent's counter (set it up so that the magic item plus your counter gives the bonus to the other counters).

Once a player has 4 magic items, it will neutralize every other player's capital, eliminating those players. That might be the easiest route, and make it easy to set up an any-3 and any-5 scenario.

Would this method eliminate eliminations?  Sometimes these 'creative' elimination mechanisms don't actually count as eliminations in the game engine.  Not sure about this one though.

Thingol wrote:

Now, for the 126, can you explain how you got to that figure? I thought I might have missed some, but 56 is a heckuva long way from 126.  Are you sure the 126 count isn't taking into account positioning (ie -  1 2 3 4 is considered a different permutation than 4 3 2 1)?

126 is correct, it's a basic function of calculating combinations. If you considered positioning, you would have 3024 possible permutations.

In general, to calculate how many ways you can choose r elements from a set of n, you would take: n! / r! (n - r)! 

If you want a quick calculator: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/combinations-permutations.aspx

@Thingol: Also, I pm'd you a list of all 126 combinations of 4 elements taken out of a list of 9.

That's awesome Kjeld.  Thanks.  Any thoughts on Berick's post?  Will an elim in this fashion count in our stats?

I think that berickf is right in that regard. Which is annoying, but not much we can do about it as designers except come up with some other work-around... but a simple one is not coming to mind!

hmmm, I wonder if I just bite the bullet on this one then.  BTW, I notice that the 5-item is also 126 combinations, so once I add the missing ones for the 4-items, I would simply need to update each for the 5-item version.

Ok, got all 126 in place now, on the Ravenloft design (not on the Perils design).

Kjeld wrote:

Thingol wrote:

Now, for the 126, can you explain how you got to that figure? I thought I might have missed some, but 56 is a heckuva long way from 126.  Are you sure the 126 count isn't taking into account positioning (ie -  1 2 3 4 is considered a different permutation than 4 3 2 1)?

126 is correct, it's a basic function of calculating combinations. If you considered positioning, you would have 3024 possible permutations.

In general, to calculate how many ways you can choose r elements from a set of n, you would take: n! / r! (n - r)! 

If you want a quick calculator: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/combinations-permutations.aspx

@Thingol: Also, I pm'd you a list of all 126 combinations of 4 elements taken out of a list of 9.

Also, fyi - google does combinatorics:

https://www.google.com/search?q=9+choose+4

Having an issue on this map getting the players to receive their normal player factory bonuses correctly - sometimes it works, sometimes not.

The map can be 2, 3, or 4 player and each player has a capital and is setup-based.

Here are the rules:

Lock order in which seats take turn  -  ON

Lock starting bonus and cards to color or seat position -  SEAT

Lock win condition to specified seat number  -  ON

Lock player colors to specified seat number - ON

Color order is orange, blue, maroon, blue-green. What I would like is for the 2-player to be the orange and blue colors.  If player 3, than p3 gets maroon. If player 4, then p4 get blue-green.  Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? 

Might just be easier to do separate scenarios.

That's an idea.  I'll do that. Thanks Ed.  

This map is now released in beta version.  There are 2-player, 3-player, 4-player scenarios as well as a basic 4-player version which pairs down some of the functionality of the finished map. I encourage folks to try this out and start with the basic version first. 

The Ravenloft Map (Ravenloft 4) has gone live. I've created a small 16-player tourney to celebrate - http://www.wargear.net/tournaments/view/2207.  It's a private tourney. If anyone has an interest and they are not invited, please PM me or message here.

Thanks so much to Kjeld and Edward Nygma for their very early and continued assistance with this and big thanks to the following players who helped playtest and also offered lots of feedback/suggestions:

Andernut, Korrun, Johasi Vidad, Ozyman, M57, Amidon37, Afrodaby, Psilofyr, Slander, mbrennan, Mongo, berickf, ratsy, itsnotatumor, weathertop, Nikolai, bshuk, Twisted, Ceggon, Chele Nica, Cona Chris, SquintGnome and j-bomb.

For players new to the map, it's recommended you start out with the 'Really Basic' scenario.  Please give it a try.

Open game for the complex scenario - http://www.wargear.net/games/join/562102.

Open game for the basic scenario - http://www.wargear.net/games/join/562683.

Need 1 player for each.