Sorry Yertle which bit specifically is not working?

tom wrote:

If you want to have seat 1 of the setup match seat 1 of the game then you just need to turn 'Lock order in which seats take turns' on. This means if a player gets randomly allocated Seat 1 then he gets the starting positions for this Seat AND he gets seat position 1 in the game.

I thought this wasn't true...although that "randomly" word just threw me now.  By "randomly allocated Seat 1" do you mean that a player could go first in a game but not be "allocated Seat 1" (with Lock Order On)?  Which means a player could get allocated Seat 2, but move first in the game if every other player is allocated Seat 3+?

Yes that could happen.

K, now I think we're on the same page....sooo....

Can we have a Rule in which things essentially happen in "reverse", a player gets Seat 1 in the game and then all the setup of Seat 1, next player gets Seat 2 in the game and then all the setup of Seat 2, etc.?

Pretty much do what Lock Player Color does, but without actually Locking Player Colors down.

So if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order?

tom wrote:

So if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order?

Not sure what Yertle is after, but that is what I was trying to make happen.

Amidon37 wrote:

tom wrote:

So if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order?

Not sure what Yertle is after, but that is what I was trying to make happen.

Yep!

Well the "take turns in that order" would be dependent upon the Lock Order Rule (as it currently is).  I think you would need a new Rule to do this (which is the new "Lock Seats" rule previously mentioned), with Default Off.  I think these would be separate Rules...I think

tom wrote:

So if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order?

yes.
At least those 4 should be filled first. If i've allocated for 8 spots to be possible, but someone starts a game with 4 players, it should randomly select and place them in seats 1-4, not even considering 5-8...

I'm a bit concerned it might just make it even more confusing than it already is.... what's wrong with just having a separate scenario for each different player number configuration?

tom wrote:

I'm a bit concerned it might just make it even more confusing than it already is.... what's wrong with just having a separate scenario for each different player number configuration?

I've thought about doing this for a few of my boards.  I think this makes a lot of sense.

tom wrote:

what's wrong with just having a separate scenario for each different player number configuration?

Nothing really :p Although a board designer would be able to handle multiple Scenarios in a single setup.

What's more confusing, this new rule or multiple Scenarios? Honest question, as either could throw players for a loop.

I would still lean towards this would help more than hurt, but I definitely agree that it could add to the confusion as well.

I would be in favor of this change if it was an overall simplification, i.e. it prevented lots of boards from having to have multiple scenarios. However if it's just a rule setting that would only really be useful for a limited number of designs I think it would be best to work around it using scenarios.

ok so for clarrification before we go anywhere lets make sure we (i.e. me) understand what the last 3 settings in //Rules/Initial Setup  actually do.

the way they sound to me (the way they should be ):
- Lock order in which seats take turns:
       Seats take turns in way designer sets them up. (i.e. if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order)

- Lock starting bonus and cards to color or seat position:
       Seats start with bonus according to initial setup in //Design/Setup (i.e. if seat 1 starts with 3 units and seat 4 starts with 4 units and an extra card....)

- Lock player colors to specified seat position:
       Sets up designer option of not allowing players to choose their own colors. (i.e. if this is set, will turn out like Duck Hunt/Five where you get what you get and you don't throw a fit).

weathertop wrote:

 - Lock order in which seats take turns:
       Seats take turns in way designer sets them up. (i.e. if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order)

- Lock starting bonus and cards to color or seat position:
       Seats start with bonus according to initial setup in //Design/Setup (i.e. if seat 1 starts with 3 units and seat 4 starts with 4 units and an extra card....)

- Lock player colors to specified seat position:
       Sets up designer option of not allowing players to choose their own colors. (i.e. if this is set, will turn out like Duck Hunt/Five where you get what you get and you don't throw a fit).

Ummm, not completely right.

- Lock Order in Which Seats Take Turns:

• If turned On, then seat order of the Initial Setup is the same as the turn order of a game. If Off, then the turn order of a game will not be restricted to the seat order of the Initial Setup.  Whether On or Off, players will not necessarily be allocated according to the seats of the Initial Setup though.  Players will always be randomly allocated seat position in a game.  If On, then Seat 1 of the Initial Setup will always make a turn before Seat 2 of the Initial Setup.  If Off, then Seat 2 of the Initial Setup could make a turn before Seat 1 of the Initial Setup.  Note: This Rule only affects SimulGear gameplay if Turn Order Each Round is set to Seat Order.

- Lock Starting Bonus and Cards to Color or Seat Position:

• If set to Color, then Starting Bonus and Starting Cards as defined on the Colors tab will follow the Player Color. If set to Seat, then Starting Bonus and Starting Cards as defined on the Colors tab will follow the Seat position.  (Note: I still really don't know how/when someone would use Colors instead of Seat, but it works.)

- Lock Player Colors to Specified Seat Number:

• If turned On, then the Player Colors/Seat combination of the Colors tab are honored and therefore the Initial Setup is essentially locked which means a game at startup will look identical to the Initial Setup of the board designer.  If Off, then the Player Color is not locked to the Seat Number and therefore players will start in randomly allocated Seat positions.  Ultimately, if On, I believe this can fulfill the request of "if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4", however players are not necessarily free to choose their color without choosing their Seat.

- Allow Players to Choose Seats (Available with Lock Player Colors to Specified Seat Number ON):

• If turned On, then players are able to choose the player color at Join and therefore his or her seat number. If Off, then players are unable to choose their player color at Join, therefore, player colors/seat positions are randomized at the start of the game.

Disclaimer...I think

Yertle wrote:

- Lock order in which seats take turns:

If turned On, then seat order of the Initial Setup is the same as the turn order of a game. If Off, then the turn order of a game will not be restricted to the seat order of the Initial Setup.  Whether On or Off, players will not necessarily be allocated according to the seats of the Initial Setup though.  Players will always be randomly allocated seat position in a game.  If On, then Seat 1 of the Initial Setup will always make a turn before Seat 2 of the Initial Setup.  If Off, then Seat 2 of the Initial Setup could make a turn before Seat 1 of the Initial Setup.  Note: This Rule only affects SimulGear gameplay if Turn Order Each Round is set to Seat Order.

well then that's just silly.  no offense tom!

if it doesn't affect all/normal maps, then it needs to be renamed to be something like "SimulGear Lock seat order" and we work on getting something that takes the place of the "Seats take turns in way designer sets them up. (i.e. if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order)".

it would be horribly intensive i would think for all boards to go back and make seperate scenarios for different # of players.

weathertop wrote:

well then that's just silly.  no offense tom!

if it doesn't affect all/normal maps, then it needs to be renamed to be something like "SimulGear Lock seat order" and we work on getting something that takes the place of the "Seats take turns in way designer sets them up. (i.e. if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4 filled and take turns in that order)".

it would be horribly intensive i would think for all boards to go back and make seperate scenarios for different # of players.

Done updating my post...be sure and check the Lock Player Colors piece.

A board to consider with these rules is Kjeld's Total War Gear. 

On a game with the standard scenario the rules as they are randomly place each player at one of the capital's on each island.  It would not work if the first player were locked into seat 1, because you would know where everyone is at the beginning.

Now that I think I get the settings I think they make sense.  A game designer only uses these lock rules if they want something specific to happen, and if the number of players varies then that specific thing will vary also - so another scenario would be ok.  (I think)  

Amidon37 wrote:

A board to consider with these rules is Kjeld's Total War Gear. 

On a game with the standard scenario the rules as they are randomly place each player at one of the capital's on each island.  It would not work if the first player were locked into seat 1, because you would know where everyone is at the beginning.

Correct.  That's why I've been saying it would have to be a new Rule and not to just utilize existing the existing rule as it could "break" boards by telling people where players are.

Yertle wrote:

Amidon37 wrote:

A board to consider with these rules is Kjeld's Total War Gear. 

On a game with the standard scenario the rules as they are randomly place each player at one of the capital's on each island.  It would not work if the first player were locked into seat 1, because you would know where everyone is at the beginning.

Correct.  That's why I've been saying it would have to be a new Rule and not to just utilize existing the existing rule as it could "break" boards by telling people where players are.

Yes exactly. In most cases you don't want the players automatically getting seat positions 1-4 in order. Think Koprulu as well where you'd end up always knowing where everyone started.

If this is a new requirement then I guess it needs a new rule... 'Fill seat positions sequentially or randomly' with the default as 'randomly' so existing boards are unaffected.

Yertle wrote:

- Lock Player Colors to Specified Seat Number:

• If turned On, then the Player Colors/Seat combination of the Colors tab are honored and therefore the Initial Setup is essentially locked which means a game at startup will look identical to the Initial Setup of the board designer.  If Off, then the Player Color is not locked to the Seat Number and therefore players will start in randomly allocated Seat positions.  Ultimately, if On, I believe this can fulfill the request of "if you have 8 seats available and 4 players join, the starting configuration is always Seats 1-4", however players are not necessarily free to choose their color without choosing their Seat.

Ughhhhh, I don't think this statement is actually true...Yertle, you don't know what you're talking about!

tom wrote:

If this is a new requirement then I guess it needs a new rule... 'Fill seat positions sequentially or randomly' with the default as 'randomly' so existing boards are unaffected.

I concur!  I like choosing my player color, so still seems like an enhancement I'd vote for :)