Valid point KrocK. However, there's a very large difference between a 5-day timer and a 3-day timer (about twice as big, in fact, as the difference between a 2-day timer and a 3-day timer that we're all hot and bothered about now...)

I also think M57 has a very interesting point... increasing community is a very important item for the site at the moment, and splitting things up doesn't seem like a good idea.

the problem i see with a 3DT is that there are already people saying that would take every weekend off. We are not talking hypothetical noob that might join a 5DT. this is a fact that there will be lots of games jacked every weekend.

"Welcome to WarGear We sure hope that you only like playing during the week, because there is a very good possibility that some if not most of your games will grind to a dead stop on the weekend. Enjoy!"

Valid point, though I notice that even with a a 2DT, many weekend games grind to a halt anyways. I wonder that the weekend crowd with-a-life make their moves on Friday night, cross their fingers and hope than it takes a day or so for their next turn to come around.

BTW, There's a solution for those that want games to move over weekends. Start your games on a Saturday!

KrocK wrote: the problem i see with a 3DT is that there are already people saying that would take every weekend off. We are not talking hypothetical noob that might join a 5DT. this is a fact that there will be lots of games jacked every weekend.

"Welcome to WarGear We sure hope that you only like playing during the week, because there is a very good possibility that some if not most of your games will grind to a dead stop on the weekend. Enjoy!"

Krock, they're already hosed, in no small part because of people like me. You know what I do on the weekends? I log in, I move once or twice (takes a while to cycle through all of my turns, so I sometimes end up taking a turn in the same game twice before logging out), then coming back on Monday. So, using our current setup, if you're really lucky, you'll get 1-2 extra turns out of me.

Maybe.

In the meantime, I'm cursing the two day timer because, instead of cleaning up around the house, spending time with my family, watching a good movie, or any of the other things I could be doing on the weekend that I generally don't have time to do on the weekdays, I'm having to log into a stupid online Flash-based strategy game and take a bunch of turns. If you think you're getting my best work when I'm full of resentment and annoyance, you are so very, very wrong.

At least when I forget to log into WF on the weekends, I don't get booted because, guess what, the people that would log in and vote me out are also taking the weekend off. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have the auto-skip/auto-boot, but it does mean we need to be far more judicious about how it's applied. Booting 90% of the use cases out there 90% of the time is not being judicious.

Look, you want your turns to go fast? Fine - go hit up a lightning game. That's what they're there for. Or, better yet, join more games. It's amazing how quickly your time fills up when you have 30+ games in your queue.

Oatworm i have 40+ on the go right now... so if you are cursing the 2DT why the hell are you using it when there is a different option available right now.

a 3DT completely disregards the weekend only player but we wont mention that guy, a 3DT will stop a majority of games on the weekend because a minority of people.

KrocK wrote: a 3DT completely disregards the weekend only player but we wont mention that guy, a 3DT will stop a majority of games on the weekend because a minority of people.

This is why the 1/3/7 timer was proposed for everyday/weekday/weekend players. I understand that this fractures community, but it does solve that issue.

Please stop telling us to use the 5 day timer, because that one doesn't do anyone any good. Doesn't work for weekday or weekend. (By the way, does anyone know of a weekend-only player? I'd love to get some feedback from them.) We've all already said we don't want it. Why are you telling us to take 2 extra days for each turn, when all we're asking of you is 1 extra?

KrocK wrote:..why the hell are you using it when there is a different option available right now.

You think that just because you can build it "they will come".  When I first joined this site, I saw a few 5DT games on the docket; now I see none.  Why?  Because they didn't come. People tried it and it doesn't work.

KrocK wrote:  ..a 3DT will stop a majority of games on the weekend because a minority of people.

Weekend games are already gummed up because the "minority" are doing whatever it takes to make it through a weekend. As I said before, if you join and start games on Saturdays in a 3DT world, even you will probably be reasonably happy.  A 1/3 or even a 2/3 solution is also workable but it'll fracture the community, We need to back up and define what we want this "community" to look like ..which brings me to a fundamental question that I think we need to answer first.

Do we want a few hundred semi-hard-core paying players with 10+ games going who pretty much check in daily, or do we want thousands of casual players who check in a few times a week to play their 3-4 games? BTW, many of whom are potentially paying players. Or can we have both? 

I think we would all agree that we would prefer "both", but my opinion on the "both" question is "Eventually ..but not yet".  WG isn't big enough.  Bring on a single 3D timer, and if we don't have the guts to try that, try a 1/3 solution on for size..

bengaltiger wrote:

Please stop telling us to use the 5 day timer, because that one doesn't do anyone any good. Doesn't work for weekday or weekend.... Why are you telling us to take 2 extra days for each turn, when all we're asking of you is 1 extra?

first off the reason that the 5DT doesn't work is that no one uses it. Why? no one has given a good answer, beside they are afraid of a hypothetical one click wonder that may or may not show up in their game and possibly make then wait longer then they are already planning to stop playing for. so because of this when a 5DT game is started you guys sit back and wring your hand, fret and worry about that possibility and end up not joining.

"Why are you telling us to take 2 extra days for each turn, when all we're asking of you is 1 extra?"

first, the option is already in place.

second, the minority of people possibly waiting 2 days over the guarantee of forcing the majority to wait 1 extra day

KrocK wrote:

..the reason that the 5DT doesn't work is that no one uses it. Why? no one has given a good answer, beside they are afraid of a hypothetical one

Did you read my post 107?  I gave a real reason. People have tried it.  It's broken.

None of the people that are asking for a change ever were playing solely 5DT games. Every person had the majority of 2DT with one or two 5DT games thrown in there. That is hardly giving it a legitimate try. Everyone has given the 2DT a legitimate try and some are finding that 2DT may not be suited for them. so all I'm saying is give the other option that is available a legitimate try befor condemning it. Don't stick your toe in the lake then say its too cold, jump in and see.

bengaltiger wrote:

KrocK wrote: a 3DT completely disregards the weekend only player but we wont mention that guy, a 3DT will stop a majority of games on the weekend because a minority of people.

This is why the 1/3/7 timer was proposed for everyday/weekday/weekend players. I understand that this fractures community, but it does solve that issue.

Please stop telling us to use the 5 day timer, because that one doesn't do anyone any good. Doesn't work for weekday or weekend. (By the way, does anyone know of a weekend-only player? I'd love to get some feedback from them.) We've all already said we don't want it. Why are you telling us to take 2 extra days for each turn, when all we're asking of you is 1 extra?

When I first started, I wanted to be a weekend only player as I had turns on TOS and more importantly lots of stuff going on in real life.  I saw that there was no option for this, joined a game, took a couple turns (over a few weeks), was not won over, was booted, and left.  The only reason I returned was because a friend in real-life kept telling me it was better and so I returned and got involved in the site, something I resisted and something I do not think is for everyone.  Had I not been encouraged to come back and get involved by them, I would not have returned and I would not have stuck around.

Since then the site has certainly gotten better, but I still don't understand why the boot timer isn't set at 3/7, 3 for the weekday only players (man I wish I had a job where I could play all day - I am close, but I don't sit at a computer all day), 7 for the weekend only players (those who have not devoted themselves to risk and want a few fun turns on the weekends, maybe only ever playing private games with friends - this is how I got started on TOS).

As asm has said, we should be focused on growing the site and to this end we should be asking ourselves what got us hooked to online risk.  I can assure you the difference between 2-day and 3-day boot timers and possible waiting a little less time between turns would not have persuaded me, but being booted on the first weekend after I started certainly would have kept me from coming back.  With that said, keep the 2 day timer around (or make it 1-day) to keep the addicted happy.

KrocK wrote:

None of the people that are asking for a change ever were playing solely 5DT games. Every person had the majority of 2DT with one or two 5DT games thrown in there. That is hardly giving it a legitimate try. Everyone has given the 2DT a legitimate try and some are finding that 2DT may not be suited for them. so all I'm saying is give the other option that is available a legitimate try befor condemning it. Don't stick your toe in the lake then say its too cold, jump in and see.

As I meant to say above, the 5-day timer doesn't work for anyone, it is in between 3-days and 7-days and seems to be a compromise that no one likes and I surmise that this is why no one uses it.  As bangletiger asked, "why give players 3 extra days between turns when they are asking for 1?".

If 7-day timers were available when I first joined, I would not have been booted and I would have stayed.  I am happy that I came back regardless and can only offer my own experience.  I do know of a few players that play mainly private games with extended timers and don't want to be addicted to the site, a 7-day casual timer would work better for them.

This is from a different site (not ToS):

Sliding Boot Times

Sliding boot times is an experimental feature that gives more flexibility to players. When sliding boot times is enabled, you only become bootable if your average play speed exceeds the boot timer, rather than the amount of time since you last played. Your average play speed is calculated by averaging your last ten turns for that game, along with the time since you last played.

This helps keep the boot time more fair. For example, if a player plays very quickly during the week, but not at all on weekends, they don't need to worry about becoming bootable on Sunday evening, even if the boot timer is set to 1 day. Conversely, a player who constantly waits a long time take every turn will become bootable much more easily.

I don't know if I like the ten turns thing, but a sliding 36 hour timer (1.5 days) could be a nice compromise.  Weekend players who make sure that they check in every weekday can be assured of being able to take the weekends off.  Hard core players who complain that games go too slowly know that even the constantly vacationing weekend players are "making up for it" during the week by checking in and moving diligently.

Alpha wrote:

If 7-day timers were available when I first joined, I would not have been booted and I would have stayed.

i defiantly under stand that getting booted when you first join is a bad. no question. just wondering, when you first joined the site why did you play 2DT games instead of 5DT, when you only wanted to play in the weekends anyway?

I'm not asking to be a dick about it, I'm really curious, if it was because the lack on information then that is something that should be looked at.

It was because there were only 5 open tables and I knew nothing about boot timers so I joined an open game.

By the way, I wanted to ask and now KrocK brought it up: How do new players know that a boot timer exists and/or what it means?

Alpha wrote: By the way, I wanted to ask and now KrocK brought it up: How do new players know that a boot timer exists and/or what it means?

Well, other than the fact that it's practically included on every page you see in one form or another as you sign up for games..

Once you pick a game on the "Join Game" page, every page thereafter pretty much gives the setting. It's hard to image being able to join or create a game and not notice what the boot type is.  As for what it means, "2 day turn limit is pretty explicit" when you create a game.  The Help pages have an entire page devoted to boot types.  The only other thing I can think of that could be done would be to link the words "Boot type" everywhere you see them.

i think lightning games do a better job at distinguishing themselves with a section in red that indicates it as a lightning game, maybe every game should have the boot time highlighted in red. adding a link to the help section on boot types wouldn't hurt.

Interesting discussion. Here are the stats for all games to date:

Lightning Games (10 / 15 mins) - 3,709 games (16%)

Regular / Extended boot Games (2 / 5 days) - 19,425 games (84%)

This is broken down as follows:

2 day boot - 18,789 games (97%)
5 day boot - 636 games (3%)

So there is certainly a strong case for change as 5 day boots are hardly used.

How about we try 2 / 3 / 7 day boot intervals (with 3 days being the default)?

I think offering both 2 and 3 day options will splinter the community somewhat. But I'm curious to find out.

Sounds good to me.  Let's see how it works out.  Will there be a new icon for the two day option or will 2 and 3 options be devoid of an icon?