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  1. #1 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    I know this might qualify for off-topic, but as it could eventually get used on this site (or maybe already had been thought about it), I'm posting it here to get more traffic.

    I am working on a bags (cornhole, bean bag toss) tourney for work. We played last year and I won, but I didn't play any of the runner-ups, so I'm trying to figure out how to better schedule things this year. There will be too great of a number of players to do a round robin, so I think swiss would be the way to go. Guessing that there will be at least 48-50 players. how would one set up such a thing? I get the math behind two player swiss system, but a 4player, 2v2 where partners don't stay the same...

    help!
    'top

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  2. #2 / 15
    Something fun Litotes
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    How many rounds do you think you will play? 


  3. #3 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    as many as it takes, i guess. i don't know what number of participants i have constrain it to. trying to figure out how many are going to want to partake.

    i'll have to look and see how many we played last year. 

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...
    Edited Fri 29th Jun 14:44 [history]

  4. #4 / 15
    Prime Amidon37
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    Here's my idea -

    you need a number of players divisible by 4

    Use this double elimination bracket here

    https://www.printyourbrackets.com/64-team-double-elimination.html

    In each of the 4 brackets put an equal number of people filling top-down - put the rest as bye's for record keeping

    In each match-up call the players A and B (so in game 1 player A is listed higher/first over player B and so on) 

    Instead of players playing each-other they play players in another bracket somewhere on the page.

    Here is what I came up with - I sort of brute-forced it so am not sure if it would out great (especially with bye's and at the end), but tried to make players play with different people

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K3Krd3MmbKy753JlGD7gknNjVsSIzLH9v07nw3BACSw/edit?usp=sharing

     

    Does this make any sense? Seem like it would work? 

     


  5. #5 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    i ...kinda... follow, but it's definitely kinda hard to. but it did lead me to put thoughts together to give an example of what i'm thinking. just need help coding up excel (or something) to make it work for random winners -- in this case, and to simplify following, the left half of the 'vs' always wins:

     

    Round 1
               
    Round 3 Winners
               
    Round 5 Winners
             
      1A 17A vs 1B 17B     1A 5A vs 9A 13A     1A 2A vs 3A 4A
      2A 18A vs 2B 18B     2A 6A vs 10A 14A              
      3A 19A vs 3B 19B     3A 7A vs 11A 15A  
    Championship
             
      4A 20A vs 4B 20B     4A 8A vs 12A 16A     1A vs 2A    
      5A 21A vs 5B 21B                            
      6A 22A vs 6B 22B  
    Round 3 Losers
               
    Consolation
             
      7A 23A vs 7B 23B     17A 21A vs 25A 29A     3A vs 4A    
      8A 24A vs 8B 24B     18A 22A vs 26A 30A              
      9A 25A vs 9B 25B     19A 23A vs 27A 31A              
      10A 26A vs 10B 26B     20A 24A vs 28A 32A              
      11A 27A vs 11B 27B                            
      12A 28A vs 12B 28B     1B 5B vs 9B 13B              
      13A 29A vs 13B 29B     2B 6B vs 10B 14B              
      14A 30A vs 14B 30B     3B 7B vs 11B 15B              
      15A 31A vs 15B 31B     4B 8B vs 12B 16B              
      16A 32A vs 16B 32B                            
                                           
    Round 2 Winners
                  17B 21B vs 25B 29B              
      1A 9A vs 17A 25A     18B 22B vs 26B 30B              
      2A 10A vs 18A 26A     19B 23B vs 27B 31B              
      3A 11A vs 19A 27A     20B 24B vs 28B 32B              
      4A 12A vs 20A 28A                            
      5A 13A vs 21A 29A  
    Round 4 Winners
                           
      6A 14A vs 22A 30A     1A 3A vs 5A 7A              
      7A 15A vs 23A 31A     2A 4A vs 6A 8A              
      8A 16A vs 24A 32A                            
                 
    Round 4 Losers
                           
    Round 2 Losers
                  9A 11A vs 13A 15A              
      1B 9B vs 17B 25B     10A 12A vs 14A 16A              
      2B 10B vs 18B 26B                            
      3B 11B vs 19B 27B     too hard to think about to fill the rest out…                      
      4B 12B vs 20B 28B                            
      5B 13B vs 21B 29B                            
      6B 14B vs 22B 30B                            
      7B 15B vs 23B 31B                            
      8B 16B vs 24B 32B                            

     

     

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  6. #6 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    man with all the uber-math-nerds here, thought i'd get a better response. wonder if it's the time of year :^\

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  7. #7 / 15
    Premium Member Pratik
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    By when do you need it?

    I think this is quite a simple problem to solve if you brute-force it. However, I am way too busy right now (have even cut my WG activity by more than half). If you can wait a few weeks, I could help. 

     

    Overall idea:

    As Amidon said, you need a number of players divisible by 4. Maybe small modifications are possible if we deal with other numbers, won't consider that now.

    Given that your total number of players is quite small (I'm assuming lesser than 100), there is no issue if we use an extremely inefficient algorithm to come up with the draw. Which should be quite easy to come up with.

    One would need to run the following till a solution is obtained, which will give a printable solution for N = 4k players

    Number of rounds: ceil (log2N) + 1. Ceil relevant for eventual generalization for different N. +1 for the last 1v1 round.

    - Random pairing initially. Then for each successive round:

    - Create subgroups with people with the same number of wins. Starting from the top-most group, make all but the bottom group divisible by 4 by adding up to 3 members from the lower group. This can either be done randomly or by giving some score to each player, and chosing the x highest.

    - For a particular subgroup, randomly pair teams and opponents. Keep doing this till you run through all possible combination such that you don't repeat partners or opponents.  If not possible, reduce the constraint to not repeating opponents from last round, and so on.

     

    Of course, this is not guaranteed to converge in reasonable time. And could be very slow even for something like 5000 players. But with less than 100, there should be no trouble.

    Edited Fri 6th Jul 05:09 [history]

  8. #8 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    games will be played 7/20. games will be played at a local park, so will need something that isn't too intensive (on the order of mins), as I can do it by hand in 5-10 but i'd rather be playing and letting the admins take care of this (who will have no clue what's going on). 

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  9. #9 / 15
    Prime Amidon37
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    Another idea - I play in 2v2 pitch (card game) tournaments. around 40 people. we play 6 rounds 2 games each round. Games to 11. Winner of each game gets a 3 point bonus. 

    Each team's score is a cumulative of the points they earned in each game plus the game bonus.

    They have some chart that says who you play each round - so you don't play every other team - like a truncated round robin.

    You could make up some thing like this and rotate the 4 players somehow. 


  10. #10 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    we tried something like that last year. ended up with the top 4 never having played one another. and the other 3 didn't like that I came out on top ;^)

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  11. #11 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    i think playing your partner works if you follow the winners, assuming you filter down line by line each time; but things get more complicated when starting to play with the losers brackets. think there might need to be points awarded (2=W, 1=Tie, 0=L ?). 

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  12. #12 / 15
    Prime Amidon37
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    Another try at double elimination

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NEjpkWSDEex1AhVeXkbxGtPOL3pzb1mtE3myh1eHvbc/edit?usp=sharing

     

    I think this will work, but could be better structured to avoid playing with the same people twice.


  13. #13 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    Amidon37 wrote:

    Another try at double elimination

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NEjpkWSDEex1AhVeXkbxGtPOL3pzb1mtE3myh1eHvbc/edit?usp=sharing

     

    I think this will work, but could be better structured to avoid playing with the same people twice.

    that's pretty similar to what i came up with but without double elim (conserving time)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/191TTnmB2BS86VPs3Fim40yo7mEByNi8pHz3AXP6tobA/edit?usp=sharing

     

    now my problem is: we're looking at only having 44ish players (hoping to get up to 48) and now i need to add in W/L and Score Differential to place 2 'loser bracket' players into the 'winner bracket' to fill out the tables. (See 44/48 player tabs) you could end up with a couple 1loss players in the final...

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...

  14. #14 / 15
    Enginerd weathertop
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    update: 

    We held our tourney this past Friday. I ended up having 48 players. I ended up using the pattern in 'final_draft_48' tab of my previous post.

    as mentioned in the tab: I needed to fill two spots on the undefeated tables for Round#4, so I had to rank the players after the first 3 rounds to find the best 2-1 players. Since I had to do this on the fly; I ended up using W/L & Goal Differential. Next year I hope to program this out better, and maybe use SODOS or something better. 

    It ended up going rather well, although a bit slow from round to round (especially 3 to 4). I hope to automate it better next year. I didn't hear any complaints about how it was seeded, so that's good I guess. 

     

    I'm a man.
    But I can change,
    if I have to,
    I guess...
    Edited Mon 23rd Jul 13:57 [history]

  15. #15 / 15
    Prime Amidon37
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    Sounds fun!


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