BTdubs wrote:

I'm completely fine with the messaging options for nonpremium, and I respect that people who support the site financially get a modest edge.  Seems fair.

If I ever want that advantage badly enough, I'll pay for it.  Meanwhile, I get just that much more satisfaction knowing that I can play with a handicap and win!

That's great for you BT, but what about for those who can't?  Not everyone is living in a country with a the appropriate financial mechanisms to just, make it so, at their whim.  So, it's not always such a a simple thing like "If I wanted it I'd get it".  I find it very presumptuous when such is written as if we're all in the same boat.

FWIW - I rarely use the PM advantage (for tactical reasons)..except in team games, where I will admit it makes a significant difference.   Of course, I avoid alliances as well, so..

I understand why some standard members might not like the perks that premium membership gets.  I also get that for some people, just paying $10 can be a big deal.

But also, somehow Tom has to support this site.  I'd love it if he made enough money to make this his day job, but at least he needs to make enough to pay for servers and hopefully get a bit of side cash for his time.

How else can he make money for the site?  I wonder if he'd be up to having some sort of advertising supported premium or near-premium.

I have no problem with the perks for premium, I just think that the lower class should be given a few mechanisms to ensure that the "workaround" for messaging in as private away as possible is a bit more acceptable.  I think I gave 3 or 4 examples of how this could be done in my previous statement on this subject.

My biggest pet peeve when playing as standard is writing on someone's wall and then waiting out my turn hoping for a response, if the urgency merits such, before taking my turn.  I end up unnecessarily wasting everyone's time!  If I could even just leave a automated pm saying I left a message on their wall then I could monitor their last log in and then as soon as I have seen they had come on and given a little time to read my automated pm directing them to their open wall, then I could play, response or not, knowing fair well what their silence means.  Of course the best would still not be to air the vital information on their wall, but, that would be the cost of playing standard.  This is fine so long as the mechanisms are in place to at least direct the other player to the message so they can read it and/or delete it as they feel necessary.  To be honest, this better serves all players, premium or standard, because I have even read displeasure from premium members for having missed messages that could have been crucial for their own success as well as the standard guy who posted to their wall.

I don't think streamlining the workaround a little would effect membership.

Cheers!

Erick

BTdubs wrote:

I'm completely fine with the messaging options for nonpremium, and I respect that people who support the site financially get a modest edge.  Seems fair.

If I ever want that advantage badly enough, I'll pay for it.  Meanwhile, I get just that much more satisfaction knowing that I can play with a handicap and win!

A Standard membership doesn't give you a handicap.  Supporting the site aside, Premium membership is about convenience.

It's akin to being able to ride in a golf cart vs. walking the course.  Not the same as a handicap.

AttilaTheHun wrote:

A Standard membership doesn't give you a handicap.  Supporting the site aside, Premium membership is about convenience.

It's akin to being able to ride in a golf cart vs. walking the course.  Not the same as a handicap.

I have won too many games because of the "convenience", to not see it for what it is... An advantage. aka standard membership is handicapped.  Don't know how many I have lost as standard because of the same, because it's private, but I do know it's effectiveness when playing as premium (if one decides to use it) and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. Like in golf, and like BTdubs said, it's great to win despite the handicap as standard, but, it's still a handicap.  If the workaround was tweaked a bit, then I could twist my mind to accept your definition as it being a convenience, even though technically speaking airing the information in a publicly available location would still be, by definition, a handicap vs the alternative.

Do standard members have the ability to PM? (Not the in-game PM, but the email version)

berickf wrote:

AttilaTheHun wrote:

A Standard membership doesn't give you a handicap.  Supporting the site aside, Premium membership is about convenience.

It's akin to being able to ride in a golf cart vs. walking the course.  Not the same as a handicap.

I have won too many games because of the "convenience", to not see it for what it is... An advantage. aka standard membership is handicapped.  Don't know how many I have lost as standard because of the same, because it's private, but I do know it's effectiveness when playing as premium (if one decides to use it) and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. Like in golf, and like BTdubs said, it's great to win despite the handicap as standard, but, it's still a handicap.  If the workaround was tweaked a bit, then I could twist my mind to accept your definition as it being a convenience, even though technically speaking airing the information in a publicly available location would still be, by definition, a handicap vs the alternative.

I can't speak for your testing methods, but I have regretted - usually almost immediately - just about every in-game message I have sent or replied to.  That's the biggest problem I have with talking in fogged games or any other; not the etiquette but the efficacy.  It's dangerous to yourself and immediately gives away too much info and often ends you up in a truce that may get you farther but often hamstrings you when it comes time to strike, and there's no prize for second place.

I'm not going to get into the minefield of who can or should afford premium access, but a good player should be able to live without PM.  A great player should also try to support the site.  For me premium access is mostly a functional convenience with the greatest benefit being that I can play as many games as I want.  

SquintGnome wrote:

Do standard members have the ability to PM? (Not the in-game PM, but the email version)

Nope, their only option is to write on the wall of who they are trying to communicate with and hope the other person reads it in time.

Sun Tzu Jr wrote:

berickf wrote:

AttilaTheHun wrote:

A Standard membership doesn't give you a handicap.  Supporting the site aside, Premium membership is about convenience.

It's akin to being able to ride in a golf cart vs. walking the course.  Not the same as a handicap.

I have won too many games because of the "convenience", to not see it for what it is... An advantage. aka standard membership is handicapped.  Don't know how many I have lost as standard because of the same, because it's private, but I do know it's effectiveness when playing as premium (if one decides to use it) and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. Like in golf, and like BTdubs said, it's great to win despite the handicap as standard, but, it's still a handicap.  If the workaround was tweaked a bit, then I could twist my mind to accept your definition as it being a convenience, even though technically speaking airing the information in a publicly available location would still be, by definition, a handicap vs the alternative.

I can't speak for your testing methods, but I have regretted - usually almost immediately - just about every in-game message I have sent or replied to.  That's the biggest problem I have with talking in fogged games or any other; not the etiquette but the efficacy.  It's dangerous to yourself and immediately gives away too much info and often ends you up in a truce that may get you farther but often hamstrings you when it comes time to strike, and there's no prize for second place.

I'm not going to get into the minefield of who can or should afford premium access, but a good player should be able to live without PM.  A great player should also try to support the site.  For me premium access is mostly a functional convenience with the greatest benefit being that I can play as many games as I want.  

You can write a message without completely tying your hands and without revealing too many specifics.  Be creative ;-)

"a good player should be able to live without PM." Of course they'll live without it and even do quite well for themselves, but the point differential will still be a little different between the good player with pm who decides to use it to their advantage versus the good player who doesn't hold this advantage and writes with futility on peoples wall to no avail.  In twenty multi-player games maybe there is one or two that could have been won because of pm.  So, the good player might have won 10 of those games, but, it could have been 11 or 12.  A small difference and the good player carries along.  I guess it's more of a class thing at the root of the issue.  Premium should get perks, sure, that's what makes it worth paying for (besides the added benefit of supporting the great site that Tom put together here - Thanks Tom!), but when something directly translates into a class differential that carries advantage over the other class... Well, personally I'd just like it if a work around actually worked and that the gap between the classes were reduced on this issue such that we truly could call the difference a perk, or as Atilla said, a convenience, and not the handicap that it is.

It's not a big deal, I'm just calling a spade a spade. Most people seem to be like you Sun, and refrain from writing even when written to, so, this might apply to making a difference for 10% of players in 10% of their games.  So, we're talking about a 1% of total games issue here.  But, I think narrowing the class difference could be quite easy by tweaking the work around while still maintaining the "perk" for premium of direct pm... So, I write it out here just to give us something to think about and debate.

Cheers,

Erick

You are partially right, but I think you ignore the offset that a few of those games would also be lost because of PM. Also I think calling it a "class" difference does a disservice to actual class issues everywhere. There may be a lot of players who have internet access and can't spare the $$, but far more standard members are simply making a choice to play for free and in balance to the finances of the site versus fairness I think the current situation is pretty acceptable

Sun Tzu Jr wrote: You are partially right, but I think you ignore the offset that a few of those games would also be lost because of PM. Also I think calling it a "class" difference does a disservice to actual class issues everywhere. There may be a lot of players who have internet access and can't spare the $$, but far more standard members are simply making a choice to play for free and in balance to the finances of the site versus fairness I think the current situation is pretty acceptable

I think you're overplaying the idea that PM'ing loses many, if any games at all.  And, the benefits, if used correctly, greatly outweigh the negatives.  You're trying to offset a 1-2 in 20 benefit with a 1 in 100 negative... The math doesn't balance for this comparison, in my experience.  Plus, since it's often that you find yourself playing many games with the same people on this site, it quickly becomes apparent who such irrationals are, in that they take you writing as some miscued affront and spend the rest of the game destroying both of your chances at winning, and you can refrain from making the same mistake in future games with that player.  Most people do play to win, and are not going to use you writing a message, publicly or privately, to tank my or their game.

I'm using the term "class" in a very specific sense here, as that's what it is whether because of circumstance or choice, but, I'm not using it to be diminutive or disrespectful to other and greater class issues in the outside-of-WarGear world that have much greater consequences to those who choose to exist in, or are forced into the class where they subside.  Maybe you can suggest a different term if you dislike my using it here?  You could say "group" or "echelon", but neither of those fully encapsulate what it is like class does as they seem to me to confer a greater sense of choice and a lesser aspect of circumstance, although, I suppose they are fine for this forum.  Not all, but many people in the WarGear community living outside of Western Europe, (Eastern Europe - not sure?), USA and Canada, do not have the same choices here as those living inside those regions, even though, as you say, many inside choose to not expend and participate anyways and choose to participate as part of the lower echelon as standard.  Which is fine, that's there choice.  But, choice is choice, and circumstance is circumstance.

Berick,

Are you saying that those whose are standard members are standard by choice or circumstance.  It is my feeling they are standard  by choice.  I realize there are subtleties to the distinction, but I want to know where you stand before going into any details.

M57 wrote:

Korrun wrote:

One of my biggest problems with in game chatter is that as a standard member, it is difficult to respond to private messages, so generally public discussions are more fun.

There are workarounds for Standard members, but it is certainly more convenient for Premium members. Between that and game stats alone, Premium membership is well worth the money spent.  It doesn't give players an explicit advantage, but it sure makes things easier ..not to mention that you are supporting the site.

The workaround that I use for communicating with standard members is to send them my email address.  If they try to initiate contact with me, though, they are out of luck.

SquintGnome wrote:

Berick,

Are you saying that those whose are standard members are standard by choice or circumstance.  It is my feeling they are standard  by choice.  I realize there are subtleties to the distinction, but I want to know where you stand before going into any details.

I'm saying that both exist.  For me personally, when I'm standard, it's because of circumstance, and I know others here who are in the same boat as I.  Every time I've been premium I have been the benefactor of others generosity, and thank you everyone who has gifted me! I wouldn't have known the difference and be able to type this comparison if not for the experience of playing premium.  For some though, they have the choice and choose not to.

SquintGnome wrote:

Berick,

Are you saying that those whose are standard members are standard by choice or circumstance.  It is my feeling they are standard  by choice.  I realize there are subtleties to the distinction, but I want to know where you stand before going into any details.

As he stated elsewhere in the thread, Berick was a standard member by circumstance.  Namely he lives in a country from which it is really hard to pay into this site.

I don't know how he is premium right now, but he first became so by being gifted a membership.

btilly wrote:

M57 wrote:

Korrun wrote:

One of my biggest problems with in game chatter is that as a standard member, it is difficult to respond to private messages, so generally public discussions are more fun.

There are workarounds for Standard members, but it is certainly more convenient for Premium members. Between that and game stats alone, Premium membership is well worth the money spent.  It doesn't give players an explicit advantage, but it sure makes things easier ..not to mention that you are supporting the site.

The workaround that I use for communicating with standard members is to send them my email address.  If they try to initiate contact with me, though, they are out of luck.

I have written my email on my profile page even, but, the dilemma is like you say, in trying to initiate contact standard -> premium, because often premium don't even check their walls with any regularity.  Besides putting up my email, I check my wall several times per day so that standard members won't be neglected if they are trying to make contact with me for strategic reasons and then also delete wall posts that include sensitive game information to protect them from others that might want to exploit what they decided to share with me.  My wife was in a game once where a premium player was stalking the standard members wall posts between each other to use to their advantage and then bragged about it in the game, so, that's why I try to be very cognizant to check and delete with regularity.

While I disagree it will drastically make a difference in win %, I don't see any problem with providing an easier workaround as berickf mentions.  If Private Messaging (via the e-mail, not via in-game messaging) is truly only for Premium then I could see how this could be seen as a slight advantage.  

As a standard member I shouldn't have to give out my e-mail address to make in-game alliances.

AttilaTheHun wrote:

While I disagree it will drastically make a difference in win %, I don't see any problem with providing an easier workaround as berickf mentions.  If Private Messaging (via the e-mail, not via in-game messaging) is truly only for Premium then I could see how this could be seen as a slight advantage.  

As a standard member I shouldn't have to give out my e-mail address to make in-game alliances.

+1

how about a lifetime membership option?  berickf mentioned that at one point.  I wonder if that would help anyone?  It might still be a hassle getting it paid, but you'd only have to do it once.