I thought I’d start this topic because Tom has shown some interest in the idea in the Feature Request thread.

To summarize, Tom referenced the below link, with the idea of using a Fisher Clock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_clock

AttilaTheHun preferred the Bronstein clock. I suggested a Fisher clock with a cap (if it's easier to program than a Bronstein Clock).

The cap  could be important, especially lightning games.  One of the primary reasons I don't play LGs is there's just too much incentive for stalling tactics, especially with a 10 minute timer.

I also suggested that the clock be adjustable by the creator of the game. Examples:

1. A 90 second clock with a 90 second (Fischer) delay and a 6 minute cap on accumulated time (a zippy game with time for the occasional trip to the refrigerator).
2. A 12 hour clock with a 12 hour delay and a 72 hour cap (a way to get a 24 hour clock to work, yet giving players the option to “earn” the occasional day or even a weekend off).

I realize this could be confusing, but games created with a clock would have a clock icon next to them.  There could even be a pop-up window that reminds the player that they are joining a game on a special timer, and to read the timer-terms carefully before joining.

I have a few related questions. the first is about the turn-reminder and new game pop-up.  Is it pretty much instantaneous?

#2 is for tom. Might it be possible to put the clock in a separate window?  That way players could refresh their screens manually.

I like the idea of a chess clock, and launching a thread was the best thing to do M57.

Fisher, Bronstein or simple delay, all seem good to me but I can't help much, having no experience. I believe all will depend on the values that will be decided.

The point I wish to make is about the creator of the game to be able to adjust the clock. I am not convinced this is a good idea. I believe it would be better to have something standardised so you know what kind of speed from the Open Games' list on the home page. The clock icon you suggested could be red for a 90 second clock with 90 delay and a 6 minute cap, orange for a 5 minutes clock..., green for a 12 hour clock... The game creator would be able to choose between those colors only.

Also I think the board designer should be able to set a minimum time (or Tom if he is not around no more). For example it's almost impossible to play an Antastic game in 90 seconds (at least on 1 vs 1 games) but some inexperienced players could be tempted to choose this setting.

M57 wrote:

I thought I’d start this topic because Tom has shown some interest in the idea in the Feature Request thread.

To summarize, Tom referenced the below link, with the idea of using a Fisher Clock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_clock

AttilaTheHun preferred the Bronstein clock. I suggested a Fisher clock with a cap (if it's easier to program than a Bronstein Clock).

The cap  could be important, especially lightning games.  One of the primary reasons I don't play LGs is there's just too much incentive for stalling tactics, especially with a 10 minute timer.

I also suggested that the clock be adjustable by the creator of the game. Examples:

1. A 90 second clock with a 90 second (Fischer) delay and a 6 minute cap on accumulated time (a zippy game with time for the occasional trip to the refrigerator).
2. A 12 hour clock with a 12 hour delay and a 72 hour cap (a way to get a 24 hour clock to work, yet giving players the option to “earn” the occasional day or even a weekend off).

I realize this could be confusing, but games created with a clock would have a clock icon next to them.  There could even be a pop-up window that reminds the player that they are joining a game on a special timer, and to read the timer-terms carefully before joining.

I have a few related questions. the first is about the turn-reminder and new game pop-up.  Is it pretty much instantaneous?

#2 is for tom. Might it be possible to put the clock in a separate window?  That way players could refresh their screens manually.

 

M57 - your suggestion for a total accumulated time cap would put me in favor of the Fischer as well.  Originally I had favored the Bronstein to prevent Lightning games from accumulating too much extra time.  The clock icon would also be a good add, but might be redundant if the rules are changed for all lightning games. (i.e. every lightning game would have a clock).

So, to sum it all up, I'm in favor of the Fischer with an accumulated time cap.

Toto wrote:

The point I wish to make is about the creator of the game to be able to adjust the clock. I am not convinced this is a good idea. I believe it would be better to have something standardised so you know what kind of speed from the Open Games' list on the home page. 

 ..it's almost impossible to play an Antastic game in 90 seconds (at least on 1 vs 1 games) but some inexperienced players could be tempted to choose this setting.

This is precisely why an adjustable clock is a good idea. Games like Roshambo and Pong could work just fine on a 30 second clock; Micro-mission would play well on a 2 minute clock, while Colossal Crusade might need a 5 minute clock, especially come mid-game.  Antastic? -- who knows.  I don't play it.

Toto's suggestion is a good alternative.  The designer (in conjunction with the review team) could include a dedicated pre-set lightning clock for each board, or even each scenario.

I'm working on this now - I agree the Fisher clock with a cap is the best option.

I need to change the way the boot script works as right now it won't support short boot intervals.

tom wrote:

I'm working on this now - I agree the Fisher clock with a cap is the best option.

I need to change the way the boot script works as right now it won't support short boot intervals.

SuperAwesomeCool!  I'm curious as to how you envision the look and feel. Usually a game clock is displayed to the side of a board, though that is by no means the only possibility.

I haven't worked out whether it will sit inside our outside the Player itself yet... watch this space :)

I'm thinking through some options on how the game clock is defined. The available settings are:

initial_time - initial number of seconds at game start (can be zero)
delay_time - number of seconds added at the start of each turn (again, can be zero)
clock_limit - maximum limit to the seconds allowed on your clock (can be unlimited)

What are people's thoughts on where these are defined. Options could be:

1. Defined by the board designer for each board / scenario.

2. Chosen from a list of pre-defined settings when creating a new game3. Manually set (i.e. completely unrestricted) when creating a new game

I'm erring towards (2) to give reasonable flexibility but not allowing unplayable settings to be chosen (e.g. 1 second to take a turn).

I like having a suggestive list that can be overridden with a manual set. The suggestive list could be modified as people start to report what good pacing is like.

At this stage, I'm not sure we know what a lightning, blitz, semi-fast, normal, or long Risk game is. Factor in the fact that some maps are inherently shorter than others and I think we want flexibility.

This is not one of those situations where we know at the outset what is best for the user. It is almost a given that whatever you think the fastest game is, someone is going to want a faster control to play that exciting super-fast Steal the Bacon game. (We could follow the lead of other timed games, but I'm convinced that what's good for the game of Go or Chess or Poker is not necessarily good here.)

I have been on the fence about this, but I like what Hugh said. Flexibility is the key. I think I like the idea of a designer created list that can be..

• changed over time in the designer page for each scenario (without having to retire and release a new board with every update)
• modified from the recommended designer set by the game creator.

Thanks guys - I agree a default designer set config with the availability of manual options is probably the best way to go.

• Custom:

Will there be no pass/penalty for the first infraction?  It is possible to have it. There could be an optional one time amnesty box.  The player's turn would be skipped as per usual and they would then get the standard Delay Time at the start of their next turn.

I agree - will have to see how it works out in practice first.

M57 wrote:

...I think I like the idea of a designer created list that can be..

• changed over time in the designer page for each scenario (without having to retire and release a new board with every update)
• modified from the recommended designer set by the game creator.

I like this.

tho i'm not sure i understand what your "init" and "delay" portions of the timer are for.

weathertop wrote:

M57 wrote:

...I think I like the idea of a designer created list that can be..

• changed over time in the designer page for each scenario (without having to retire and release a new board with every update)
• modified from the recommended designer set by the game creator.

I like this.

tho i'm not sure i understand what your "init" and "delay" portions of the timer are for.

Tom outlined them in post #8.

Initial is the amount of time that is on your clock before the game even starts.  Then at the beginning of your turn you are allotted your "Delay Time" Allowance. 

Example:

Say you have 12 hour Init time and 30 hour delay time with a 50 hour Clock Limit.  The game starts and you are the first player, but you don't "finish" your turn for 5 hours.  At the end of your first turn, you would see 12 + 30 - 5 = 27 hours on your clock.

As soon as your second turn comes around your clock would read 27 + and additional 30 = 57 hours, except there is a 50 hour clock limit - so it will start at 50 when your second turn comes around.  You can see that if you take your turn quickly, your total time can add up fast.  Thus the need for a cap.

yeah i read the post and still didn't understand.

i think i begin to understand with your example. tho i don't think it makes sense the way you have it.

I'd think with your numbers it would go: you have 12 hours to make your first initial move (could be just joining the game for a tourney). if you make your first move (or join) in 5 hours, you're good and no time comes off the 50 hour one. second turn it takes you 8 hours to make your move. third turn you have still have 50 hours left as you didn't exceed your 30hour delay time. however, it took you 38 hours to make your third move. at the beginning of your fourth turn you have 42 hours left (50 - (38 - 30)).

weathertop wrote:

I'd think with your numbers it would go: you have 12 hours to make your first initial move.

This makes no sense because Init can be set to 0.

tom wrote:

Thanks guys - I agree a default designer set config with the availability of manual options is probably the best way to go.

Will the host player be able to set the clock timer limits  to something other than the preset options?

AttilaTheHun wrote:

Will the host player be able to set the clock timer limits  to something other than the preset options?

Hopefully, that's what the "Custom" Option will be all about.

Is there going to be a little clock icon for games with a game clock?  Will there be different icons depending on the clock settings?